DP Gripes, and things that have (almost) pushed me to Cubase

[James Steele]

For the people getting no notes, consider how your plugin might handle a note that is zero or 1 tick long.

For those asking why this matters:

I often use DP for composition and arrangement. I quantize note starts and ends so that the durations look right in notation. I mostly edit in the graphic editor, but occasionally view or print notation for various purposes. So playback is often effed up. And I used to like to scrub curtain passages as my way of "processing" compositionally, but I can't do that any more.

If anyone could see my workflows with composition, you'd understand why I'm bugged by lasso/scrub grid snapping, and this stupid cut-off note thing that's been going on for ages.

I still can't understand why someone would want a note that is zero ticks long? Is it even possible to create a note (MIDI Event) like that. That's essentially a note with zero duration. Which is functionally no note at all. Seems like a DAW shouldn't even allow that as a possibility?

[stubbsonic]

I still can't understand why someone would want a note that is zero ticks long? Is it even possible to create a note (MIDI Event) like that. That's essentially a note with zero duration. Which is functionally no note at all. Seems like a DAW shouldn't even allow that as a possibility?

It's not that someone would want it. It's just what this particular glitch does. For example, let's say you have a series of four adjacent notes, same pitch, all quantized, or pencilled in:

With the bug, the VI receives the MIDI note messages in this order:

1 | 1 | 000 Note #1 ON
1 | 2 | 000 Note #2 ON followed immediately by Note #1 OFF
1 | 3 | 000 Note #3 ON followed immediately by Note #2 OFF
1 | 4 | 000 Note #4 ON followed immediately by Note #3 OFF
2 | 1 | 000 Note #4 OFF

So Note #2 is actually triggered, but then immediately receives the Note OFF from Note #1, presumably serially, but on the same tick. If the synth's sound has a release portion, that starts with the Note OFF, which is why we might hear some sound in some cases. Depending on how the synth treats the release, you might hear nothing.

I also assume that if it was working as it should, DP would send the old note OFF first, then the new note ON second.

Pianoteq has a MIDI readout which shows sequentially the MIDI events it receives. Note the time-stamps and order of ONs and Offs.

Screenshot 2024-04-29 at 10.43.06 PM.png (103.16 KiB) Viewed 396 times

[Chris T]

This is an ongoing issue that I’ve never solved:

I’m in Track View. I mouse-select several audio tracks. I hit Shift-M to open Mixer (floating window). It shows the PREVIOUS mixer configuration, NOT the tracks I just hightlighted. Seems like it has a ‘memory’ as to my previous mix. If I then close the mixer window (clicking the top left “Red X” in Mixer), re-select my desired audio tracks then Shift-M, THEN it shows the desired tracks. Is this a bug?…

[stubbsonic]

Sounds like a bug, but I suppose it is possible that there could have been some logic like bring back up the previous track selections-- so you could adjust them more. I could understand that, if the mixer was already open in the background, and you just brought it forward. But if the mixer was closed and you opened it, then your expected behavior makes sense.

[Chris T]

I think my template has several of these 'bugs'. My template has been growing for over 10 years and is thousands of MIDI / Audio tracks. If the issues I'm experiencing are indeed bugs unique to my template I guess that the only way to remedy them would be to rebuild my template from scratch?...

Another one is that my metronome won't sound when I record (or playback), despite having selected it (and output channel etc is correct). If Metronome is lit (blue), typically clicks will not sound. I have to deselect metronome, then re-select DURING recording/playback for it to finally sound the clicks... Anyone else have this issue? I think a few years ago MOTU told me it was probably my specific template-related...

[HCMarkus]

Another one is that my metronome won't sound when I record (or playback), despite having selected it (and output channel etc is correct). If Metronome is lit (blue), typically clicks will not sound. I have to deselect metronome, then re-select DURING recording/playback for it to finally sound the clicks... Anyone else have this issue? I think a few years ago MOTU told me it was probably my specific template-related...

Never seen this one.

I think my template has several of these 'bugs'. My template has been growing for over 10 years and is thousands of MIDI / Audio tracks. If the issues I'm experiencing are indeed bugs unique to my template I guess that the only way to remedy them would be to rebuild my template from scratch?...

An unenviable task, indeed. I've been tempted to tackle this, but things have been pretty darn smooth 'round these parts, so the motivation has been lacking. My template dates from (IIRC) DP8 on my Intel 5,1 Mac Pro. I've replaced some old stuff with newer versions (notably Kontakt 7 from K6), and I've added a lot of buses after moving to Apple Silicon (because my Mac can now handle them), but my template is certainly not "fresh." It is not huge, but it would still take a lot of work to put it together again from scratch.

PS: I route my metronome via a dedicated bus to my monitors thru my interface's AVB Mixer. Have you ever tried a re-route to another bus?

[dix]

Another one is that my metronome won't sound when I record (or playback), despite having selected it (and output channel etc is correct). If Metronome is lit (blue), typically clicks will not sound. I have to deselect metronome, then re-select DURING recording/playback for it to finally sound the clicks... Anyone else have this issue? I think a few years ago MOTU told me it was probably my specific template-related...

Never seen this. Have you tried checking to see what happens when you don't use your template? If it happens on a fresh sequence in a fresh project, that would point to something besides your template...same goes for the rest of the issues you mention.

[stubbsonic]

I've had click and tap tempo behave stupidly/sluggishly. But not lately (admittedly, I've not used tap tempo in a while).

[Michael Canavan]

This is an ongoing issue that I’ve never solved:

I’m in Track View. I mouse-select several audio tracks. I hit Shift-M to open Mixer (floating window). It shows the PREVIOUS mixer configuration, NOT the tracks I just hightlighted. Seems like it has a ‘memory’ as to my previous mix. If I then close the mixer window (clicking the top left “Red X” in Mixer), re-select my desired audio tracks then Shift-M, THEN it shows the desired tracks. Is this a bug?…

Track Selection is just woefully awkward in almost every way. It's such a powerful feature of DP, but it's overtly complicated with multiple caveats. I'm writing up a Tech Link on it, and it's like a small novel. The basic issue is if you treat Track Selection like something you have to do every time you select a new edit window it's fine, but this is so counter intuitive what with all the ways it's supposed to work.

We have Track Layouts that you can create, that need to be carefully updated every time you add tracks to the sequence, which makes them useless during the composition process unless you always use exactly the same setup.

Then there's the fact that there are two Track Selectors, a global one, and an edit window one. This would be OK I guess if there was consistency between the windows? but there isn't. Depending on your settings in the Preferences/Editing/Track Selector Button you get wildly different behavior, as expected, but also not consistent with what you should expect. For instance opening up a separate mixer window and instantiating it's edit window track selector works, but as soon as you bring that window to the front the global track selector in the Consolidated Window updates to the Mixer selection, even with the Preference "Opens Track Selector window for Editor ins the Consolidated Window." Basically the global Track Selector always updates to whatever is the front window regardless of the settings.

Plus, the Tracks window does not respect selection with the two key commands for Track Selection, in the Conolidaed window you can open up the edit window track selector and the global one with exactly the same settings left and right of the Tracks window, never a need for this. Te key commands for track selection do not respect either track selection type, they work or do not work depending on which panel is selected in the consolidated window, and they show/hide the Track Selector regardless of which window is in front if you select the Shift Command t one, Option Command E which gives no indication of it's nature shows and hides only the front selected window, and in the consolidated window it opens the edit window track selector if the Tracks window is selected regardless of whether there's already a global track selector open.

It's a mess and honestly the solution seems obvious, I'm definitely sending it in to Suggestions. Edit windows should have lock buttons for Track Selection. Most of the time I want different tracks selected for the Tracks, Mixer, MIDI, Drum and Sequence editors. I don't normally need to see all MIDI tracks in the Mixer and Aux tracks aren't that useful in the Tracks window, obvious how this applies to the Drum editor and Sequence editor etc. A simple button on the edit windows to lock the selection so it does not change depending on other edit window selections would go a long way to solve most inconsistencies here.

[Chris T]

Hi Michael.

Thanks for your research on Mixer window issues. I'm not sure if I've quite grasped all that you're describing above, but you're obviously on top of it! To summarize my gripes / suggestion would be the following. I think the functions should work the same whether or not Mixer is in consolidated window or free-floating:

1. I wish you could indeed "LOCK" the mixer window track selector and have it be independent of the tracks window.

2. If track folders in Tracks window are closed that shouldn't prevent those track channels from displaying in mixer window.

3. How about, like the View menu option of ("Display only tracks with Soundbites/notes") that we have the same option for Mixer window. This way, regardless of whatever is selected / viewed in Track view, when you open the mixer, you could select "Display only mixer channels with soundbites / notes / Plugins (so it includes any reverb / FX Aux tracks)" . This way you're viewing ONLY mixer channels that are creating or effecting sound or have MIDI info.

This could be a "1-click" way of displaying ONLY the relevant mixer channels.

Maybe having a further option to override-hide MIDI (or audio) tracks could add even more power to the function.

Has anyone suggested this in the past?

--------------

P.S. I know that we can CURRENTLY ""Display only mixer channels with soundbites / notes", Shift-select all those tracks in Track window then Shift-M to open ONLY THOSE Mixer tracks. My above suggestion (3) of having a function called "Display only mixer channels with soundbites / notes / Plugins" would be incredibly useful when you're WRITING so that any tracks that you have data/plugins on will automatically show up in a 'custom' mixer window which allows the user to tweak faders / knobs as they're writing (and not have auto scroll through an infinite number of mixer channels to find the righting).

I constantly use the mixer as I write, not just in the latter "MIX phase" of the process. Right now it's incredibly fiddly to select the right tracks as you're going through the creative process.

[pencilina]

1. I wish you could indeed "LOCK" the mixer window track selector and have it be independent of the tracks window.

Hi Chris,


You can. Go to Settings>Edit Windows>Track Selector Button> and choose: "Always opens the edit window's track selector"

Now the little track selector button will effect only that window's selection. Notice this is a different track selector then choosing a track selector in a consolidated track selector which will change the track selection in whatever the active window is.

I think this was a fairy recent feature.

[Michael Canavan]

1. I wish you could indeed "LOCK" the mixer window track selector and have it be independent of the tracks window.

Hi Chris,


You can. Go to Settings>Edit Windows>Track Selector Button> and choose: "Always opens the edit window's track selector"

Now the little track selector button will effect only that window's selection. Notice this is a different track selector then choosing a track selector in a consolidated track selector which will change the track selection in whatever the active window is.

I think this was a fairy recent feature.

So the problem with this is it still remains that closing say the Mixer window if it's a separate floating window from the Consolidated window means that selection in the Tracks window itself again determines what is selected in the Mixer window when it opens. Also fun, it doesn't eliminate the global tracks window. You can still open it in the Consolidated window, and have both the Edit window Track Selector and the rules get really weird. The Mixing board responds to selected tracks in the Tracks Window and the Sequence Editor does not.

All of this inconsistency is why I really wish they had lock buttons for Edit Windows. because no, as it stands it's not locking, the Mixer will respond to track selection in the Tracks window.

[pencilina]

So the problem with this is it still remains that closing say the Mixer window if it's a separate floating window from the Consolidated window means that selection in the Tracks window itself again determines what is selected in the Mixer window when it opens.

Hi Michael,

I just double checked this and am able to have unique selections for individual windows (floating or not as well as closed and reopened). You probably need to change your edit window settings as I mentioned above, and most importantly, use the show/hide button per window giving each window (or pane) its own show/hide column. And if you don't like loosing the screen real estate in each window to the new columns, the "shown" tracks will even be remembered if you tun off the column/s with the little buttons.

[stubbsonic]

Seems like time moves more slowly when you're waiting for a reply from a TechLink.