DP Gripes, and things that have (almost) pushed me to Cubase

[Chris T]

Lately I've been grappling with the dilemma of whether or not I should leave DP (which I've been using for over 20 years) and move to Cubase. This instinct has been a culmination of many gripes about DP that to my knowledge have never been fixed. I've recently delved into Cubase and been impressed by many things, but DP still draws me back with its strengths (e.g. better Notation window, better handling of video, scoring to picture, etc).

I run DP11.23 on a maxed-out, M2 Mac Studio Ultra (running OS Ventura). I have a large orchestral template and use many synths, plugins etc. I run all my orchestral wind/brass on VEPPro 7 running on my main machine. I run all my strings on a separate Mac Mini (2018) with VEPRO 7 (over ethernet). All my other synths VIs, Kontakts, Spectrasonics, etc. are hosted within DP.

Here are my gripes. If anyone agrees, or better, can correct me on something I don't know, please chime in:

1. DP crashes a lot. This may be due to my very large orchestral/synth template using many plugins. It might be alleviated if I rebuilt my old template from scratch...but might not. (It would be a LOT of work to find this out...). Any thoughts?

2. When running a VI in DP (e.g. Kontakt 6 or 7), whether or not I have selected "run open instances of this plug-in in real time", the minute I record-enable a MIDI track for that VI I get the spinning beach ball for at least 5s. The only way to avoid this is to have the VI window always open. It's always slowed down my workflow. Cubase is a LOT snappier when it comes to selecting / playing VIs.

3. No multiple Mixer windows possible (in Cubase it is). DP's "Saved Board Layouts" only work if all the tracks are visible in track window, and even then it's temperamental. This makes mixing large projects cumbersome and fiddly. I'm always spending ages selecting/deselecting tracks to show in my (single) Mixer window. Any chance this will improve sometime?

4. Is there a way to tell the mixer selection to show only the “viewed tracks” in track window (i.e. only open folders). I.e. to ‘link’ the track selection lists so they automatically default to whatever’s viewed in the other window?

5. When I go “Show Only tracks with Soundbites or Audio” is there a way to exclude some tracks from this? (e.g. Master fade, Aux Busses, VI tracks, etc?)

6. Mass-moving audio bundles. Will this ever be possible?

There are others which I'll add when I think of them. I'd appreciate any thoughts!

Thanks.

[stubbsonic]

Yea, DP crashes a lot for me, too. In recent months I've noticed that DP's auto-save has been more effective at reducing the amount of lost work to a fairly painless amount.

Seems like most other users here have a better experience than us.

I'm especially frustrated with Apple, as they have made it impossible to create an external boot volume to trouble-shoot with, or for emergencies.

At some point, I'll take a deep breath and spend a few days doing a clean install.

I did quit DP once. but came crawling back, hat in hand, tail between legs. "Sorry I doubted."

Tried Logic a couple times. Some things I like: WAY better lasso selection in piano roll editor, prettier plugins, a few useful MIDI plugins. But otherwise, it feels more like a fight than a flow.

[Chris T]

Thanks for sharing Stubbsonic.

Can you tell me what were the main factors for bringing you back to DP after you'd defected to Logic.? (...Or was it just familiarity and being already quicker in DP?).

[dix]

Regarding #1 and #2 in the OP, since the majority of DP users don't have these issues, there may be something you can do on your end to remedy them. I occasionally have project-specific crashyness (#1) and/or pre-gen issues (#2), but it's rare. ...you are aware of Live Performance Mode, yes? I haven't bothered with "run open instances of this plug-in in real time" since it was introduced with DP11.

The others are very legit (including snappiness). We're due for a version upgrade - within the next 12 months maybe? It's possible more robust mixer and view-only options will be included, but of course we can't know that. ...my peeve with the view-only filters is that they nuke the current Selector config (someone please tell me if this can be avoided).

We hope you don't migrate to Cubase, but it does look like an awesome app. I too have done my time in Logic. Enough time to know I don't want to live there. Cubase would be my next choice too.

[bayswater]

I heartily agree with the need for multiple mixer windows. It's been on my list since I stopped using Cubase at version 4. That version was a joke, I was getting Windows error message windows on the Mac version, and the new content browser caused long periods of wheel spinning, but I gather it has improved since.

I haven't experienced the other problems you list. But since this forum is now dominated by issues arising with the intro of AS and Ventura/Sonoma, I have to assume a lot of them are created by Apple's pathetic performance with software QA over the past few years. They've even managed to lunch Logic a couple of times. Now we're looking at the intro of the M4. Not happy with a questionable OS updates once a year come hell or high water, they now want to further frustrate us with annual CPU updates. Software developers must be climbing the walls.

My next significant update will start with a look at Windows. But I'll stick with DP. I have a lot of DAWs, but I've rarely managed to both start and finish a project with anything other than DP. Mixbus was a rare exception, but even that is looking a bit dicey with the recent takeover by SSL.

[dix]

But since this forum is now dominated by issues arising with the intro of AS and Ventura/Sonoma…

Is this not because this forum is now dominated by AS and Ventura/Sonoma users? My own experience is that my M1 Max is much more stable than my old cMP.

[stubbsonic]

Can you tell me what were the main factors for bringing you back to DP after you'd defected to Logic.? (...Or was it just familiarity and being already quicker in DP?).

Familiarity with DP was significant. However, there were some legitimate beefs with Logic:

1. Logic's documentation was terrible. Don't know if it has gotten better.
2. Organization of the Logic program itself was really messy and features were really hard to find.
3. Transpose and Quantize functions are more flexible in DP, and DP has other more mature compositional tools.
4. Some features missing from Logic, like "Snip" which I use quite a bit.
5. It's not like Logic didn't crash.

Things that DP lacks, like MIDI chord trigger, I could find via 3rd party.

[pencilina]

I'm total agreement with the OP and am just about at wit's end with DP. I've used DP since 1998. In the last couple years I've been brutalized by DP's instability. It's horrible. I probably spend 25% of my time with DP troubleshooting (and this was after my fiasco of trying to migrate to widows). Most the problems I experience are related to its abysmal plugin handling but I'm constantly surprised with new problems. When I try new features like clips and melodyne integration, crashes abound. I don't use any cracks and update plugins when possible and do all the usual crap thats supposed to work (loading chunks into new projects, disabling groups of plugins etc) and nothing really helps. Once it seems like I've found the offending plugin another plugin appears to be causing the issue. It's a constant game of whack a mole. Switching VST, AU, mono to stereo (oy vey!!), mono or stereo, nothing seems to work properly. Soundtoys, Kirchoff EQ, Brainworks stuff, PSP so many wonderful tools I've invested in, turned into problems that are, according to the wisdom of many folks here and MOTU tech support, my fault because their presence interferes with DP's almost flawless functionality. And of course there's no database at Motu that might suggest which plugins are problematic when I call in with issues. The only gratification I get from MOTU tech support is knowing that the nice person who is helping me is getting paid.

If I could snap my fingers and switch to another DAW having the same speed with it as I have with DP I'd do so in a heartbeat and never look back. I'd miss this forum though... My problem is that I'm so fast and familiar with DP that even with its crashing, like Stubbsonic, It still seems like the path of least resistance. It's kinda like working in OS9 years ago. If DP worked properly I'd be thrilled with it but, in my case, soiling it with 3rd party plugins, it doesn't. Yes, there's always issues with new versions of Apple OSes but IMO the fault lies squarely with MOTU seeming to not maintain and test its SW in real world use cases. I have just as crappy performance in DP on the same machine with Mojave as I do with it in Ventura. I get the same problems on intel in my studio as on my M1 laptop which got a clean install as well. If it's Apple's fault why does Bitwig and the rest of the SW on my Machines work almost perfectly? Someone chimed in here on another thread that it wasn't fair to compare Bitwig with DP. Sorry about that. Even crazy Akai MPC never gives me any grief.

Last week I worked for a full day on a mix on DP to open it the next day and have the same project crash and output DC pops threatening my hearing and my monitors. I still haven't found a solution. The project will play for 1-10 minutes and then behave like this. My master output's dead, other tracks meters show them playing. Then crashes with reports that says thread zero crashed and not one mention of a third party plugin in thread 0. Then there's the constant "Mas 1...falure to get class info errors" that pop up for no reason when I'm working before DP crashes which might not happen the next day. Then errors again the day after.

I just want the tool I use and have paid for again and again to work as described. I know there are people in this forum that claim never to have any serious issues with DP. I'm happy for them and hope their luck continues. Some of us here have discussed this stuff before and the situation worsens but its nice to be heard (thank yawl) and know I'm not the only one. I wish as a community we could address the state of DP with MOTU (plugin handling obviously being at the top of my list) but it seems like this will never happen since so many people on this forum apparently don't have any significant problems with DP. Though, I bet a poll might suggest otherwise. MOTU might respond with some fixes. James, if you're reading this could that happen or could you possibly change the dead horse getting beaten Smiley into a unicorn getting beaten?

Since I'm not doing that much with VIs/MIDI these days and am focused on recording and mixing and editing I'm looking at Reaper to work on my next project but now I'm interested in Cubase as well! OK, I've griped...

[HCMarkus]

OK, I've griped...

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

I'm running Soundtoys without issue on my M1 Mac Studio. Don't use/have the other plugins you mentioned.

I've got a couple of bug reports in to MOTU at present (SE Window MIDI note visibility and weird MIDI note drag, both reported in this forum) and I will get an out-of-the-blue crash now and then, but most days I work without any crashes. I do shut down my Mac every night, so start each day fresh.

I am curious if you have the same or similar issues on your Hack and your M1 Laptop...

[dix]

I'm total agreement with the OP and am just about at wit's end with DP. I've used DP since 1998. In the last couple years I've been brutalized by DP's instability. It's horrible. I probably spend 25% of my time with DP troubleshooting (and this was after my fiasco of trying to migrate to widows). Most the problems I experience are related to its abysmal plugin handling but I'm constantly surprised with new problems. When I try new features like clips and melodyne integration, crashes abound. I don't use any cracks and update plugins when possible and do all the usual crap thats supposed to work (loading chunks into new projects, disabling groups of plugins etc) and nothing really helps. Once it seems like I've found the offending plugin another plugin appears to be causing the issue. It's a constant game of whack a mole. Switching VST, AU, mono to stereo (oy vey!!), mono or stereo, nothing seems to work properly. Soundtoys, Kirchoff EQ, Brainworks stuff, PSP so many wonderful tools I've invested in, turned into problems that are, according to the wisdom of many folks here and MOTU tech support, my fault because their presence interferes with DP's almost flawless functionality. And of course there's no database at Motu that might suggest which plugins are problematic when I call in with issues. The only gratification I get from MOTU tech support is knowing that the nice person who is helping me is getting paid.

If I could snap my fingers and switch to another DAW having the same speed with it as I have with DP I'd do so in a heartbeat and never look back. I'd miss this forum though... My problem is that I'm so fast and familiar with DP that even with its crashing, like Stubbsonic, It still seems like the path of least resistance. It's kinda like working in OS9 years ago. If DP worked properly I'd be thrilled with it but, in my case, soiling it with 3rd party plugins, it doesn't. Yes, there's always issues with new versions of Apple OSes but IMO the fault lies squarely with MOTU seeming to not maintain and test its SW in real world use cases. I have just as crappy performance in DP on the same machine with Mojave as I do with it in Ventura. I get the same problems on intel in my studio as on my M1 laptop which got a clean install as well. If it's Apple's fault why does Bitwig and the rest of the SW on my Machines work almost perfectly? Someone chimed in here on another thread that it wasn't fair to compare Bitwig with DP. Sorry about that. Even crazy Akai MPC never gives me any grief.

Last week I worked for a full day on a mix on DP to open it the next day and have the same project crash and output DC pops threatening my hearing and my monitors. I still haven't found a solution. The project will play for 1-10 minutes and then behave like this. My master output's dead, other tracks meters show them playing. Then crashes with reports that says thread zero crashed and not one mention of a third party plugin in thread 0. Then there's the constant "Mas 1...falure to get class info errors" that pop up for no reason when I'm working before DP crashes which might not happen the next day. Then errors again the day after.

I just want the tool I use and have paid for again and again to work as described. I know there are people in this forum that claim never to have any serious issues with DP. I'm happy for them and hope their luck continues. Some of us here have discussed this stuff before and the situation worsens but its nice to be heard (thank yawl) and know I'm not the only one. I wish as a community we could address the state of DP with MOTU (plugin handling obviously being at the top of my list) but it seems like this will never happen since so many people on this forum apparently don't have any significant problems with DP. Though, I bet a poll might suggest otherwise. MOTU might respond with some fixes. James, if you're reading this could that happen or could you possibly change the dead horse getting beaten Smiley into a unicorn getting beaten?

Since I'm not doing that much with VIs/MIDI these days and am focused on recording and mixing and editing I'm looking at Reaper to work on my next project but now I'm interested in Cubase as well! OK, I've griped...

Holy crp, pencilina, I can tell you like DP so I’m sorry, but if I had a fraction of the issues you describe I’d have moved on to another DAW yesterday.

[bayswater]

But since this forum is now dominated by issues arising with the intro of AS and Ventura/Sonoma…

Is this not because this forum is now dominated by AS and Ventura/Sonoma users? My own experience is that my M1 Max is much more stable than my old cMP.

Obviously you’d need a lot of AS users to get a lot of AS complaints, but you can’t miss the number of posts of complaints with effects, VIs and hardware not working any more. You could argue that it’s up to developers to keep changing their code to conform with Apple’s latest hardware and OS versions, but there are complaints there too.

[pencilina]

Holy crp, pencilina, I can tell you like DP so I’m sorry, but if I had a fraction of the issues you describe I’d have moved on to another DAW yesterday.

Thanks and I wish I had your good sense! I should remind myself that I hated DP at first after switching from Studio Vision Pro and PT for years. I'm so used to having DP's multiple views of my work and being able to very quickly focus on the parts that I'm working on (and chinks and clippings) plus knowing all the shortcuts and how everything works (and doesn't) I get instantly frustrated with other daws. I've gotten used to Bitwig but its more of an electronic production playground then a serious mixing and editing tool which is what I need most of the time. The next step is forcing myself to work with Reaper. It's just so awkward. When I work in DP and it doesn't crash, its blissful as I'm focused on the music I'm making and don't have to think about how to do anything technical. Creative joy and and being a veteran of years of working with comparatively unstable systems pre OSX aren't helping me much. I keep hoping MOTU will address stability or I'll make a troubleshooting breakthrough as I've overcome so many technical hurdles in the past. My most recent attempt is to switch all plugins in new projects where possible to VST3 format.

[stubbsonic]

As the sands of time have poured on, I've seen some number of DP updates that mention "rebuilding from the ground up" or some other such claim of careful reworking. Various updates have brought with them some improvements and new powers. I've had a couple of my "darlings" murdered with updates, but not many. I guess I'm somewhat lucky that DP generally works, and for me, crashes are a bit less frequent, and less consequential. My high expectations have been slowly sanded low and smooth, to torture my poetry a bit.

I've wandered out to 4 or 5 other DAWs, and have found several features or workflows that are ok, but nothing really comes close. I just want MOTU to know that I'm in their corner; I want them to succeed, I want the DAW to live on-- work well-- and serve composers for as long as possible!

[Chris T]

Thank you all for your input. It seems that instability and crashes are usually symptomatic of folks with unusual plugin / VIs configs. Since so many others have no or very little instability.

I too want DP to work for me. I'll be honest that I've never really put in the time to systematically trouble-shoot crash issues (e.g. gradually removing plugins), but when you're jumping from one intense project to the next, who has time to do this stuff?

I also admit that I've never spent dedicated time to 'improve my workflow': learning ALL the features, key commands, integrating KB Maestro, Touch OSC etc. Things that, had I done them say 10 years ago, may have sped up my workflow a hundred-fold. If I decide to stay in DP, I vow to do all these things in every spare minute I have!

I'd be curious to know from those DP die-hards who have also tried migrating to say Cubase (or other DAWs), what was it about DP that brought you back? Any specific features / traits that you couldn't do without?

For me, I use the Quickscribe editor a lot. I know that Cubase's notation is pretty bad, (and I guess DP's is better than Logic's also?). Any thoughts in that regard are also welcomed.

[greg328]

I’m sort of in the same boat, I’ve been using DP since 1990, and Performer before that! I’m currently on a Mac studio ultra M1, and I’ve just got loads of latency-I feel like DP is not utilizing all 20 cores on the Ultra very efficiently.

I’m considering Cubase Pro 13 as well, but one thing stopping me from doing the switchover is the fact that you cannot shift/select more than one audio I/Oin their hardware configuration.

With DP, you can shift/select in the hardware setup and have more than one active I/O in the session.

I have an UA Apollo x8, and also have a Yamaha Montage M connected digitally via USB, for both MIDI and digital audio input into DP.

As I understand that, Cubase requires you to make an aggregate audio device in core audio, and that can then provide multiple I/Os. The Cubase forums mention that there are some drawbacks to the aggregate audio device within Cubase so that’s an issue for me.

The other overwhelming reason I’m hesitating doing the switchover is that I’ve got 3 1/2 decades with DP so I know it very well. The learning curve on Cubase looks a little steep. Plus I’m in the middle of a big project right now, so I really can’t afford a steep learning curve at this time.

So-I’m on the fence.

What’s this I hear about VSTs being more efficient than Audio Unit plug-ins? Is there any reason for me to switch away from AU and to VST plugs within DP for perhaps better performance? I’ve been AU forever-

Greg


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