New Mac Pro and PCIe card compatability

[Renaissance Man]

I've been dreading upgrading, My early 2008 intel Mac still works but I am stuck in El Captain. What I need to know is will my MOTU PCIe-424 card fit into the new Mac Pro? I see the Mac OS 14 drivers for my interfaces on MOTU's support page but don't know if the new Mac Pro even has a slot that will fit the PCIe form factor card, or if the voltages are correct. I really don't want to have to replace my 3-2408 MK3's and 24i/o.

[James Steele]

I'm pretty sure it will be unavoidable. Even if the card physically fits in the slot, I doubt it would work without a firmware upgrade. I feel your pain. I had to basically scrap my HD192 + 24I/O hardware when I got the Mac Studio.

[mikehalloran]

This has been discussed in many threads over the last 13 or so years. James is right. MOTU would have to make a new PCIe card with upgradeable firmware and that never happened. No solution or workaround has been found including external PCIe boxes, the 2019 Mac Pro 7.1 or the current 2023 M2 Mac Pro.

The 2012 Mac Pro 5.1 was the last Mac that could run the 424e card. It supports Catalina. There are hacks that can get it running over later macOS and a cottage industry of CPU and GPU upgrades for these and the 4.1 that preceded it. Tons of threads here, GearSpace and Macrumors on how to do this.

Windows machines can still be built that hold this card.

Drivers are not the issue, however as the 424e uses the MOTU Audio Installer and builds exist that work over Sonoma and Windows 11.

[HCMarkus]

Depending on how much performance you need, you could grab a 12 core 3.33/3.46gHz cheese grater (2010 or 2012) for very few dollars and use your MOTU gear.

Here's the first one I saw on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/364740446927?i ... R576v7i7Yw

I've got one sitting in my machine closet. It has been booted twice since I moved to Apple Silicon.

[Renaissance Man]

My current machine is a 2008 8-core 2.8ghz intel Mac. it sounds tempting but I don't know if the added gains would justify the cost of a 2012 12-core 3.33ghz machine. At best it could buy some time.
So far I've been underwhelmed by Apples new machines. It seems to me that they have all but abandoned Mac Pro audio users in favor of video 'Content Creators' as their architecture is heavily biased toward video rather than audio production. I guess I have to go back to the drawing board and reevaluate my life choices

[HCMarkus]

My current machine is a 2008 8-core 2.8ghz intel Mac. it sounds tempting but I don't know if the added gains would justify the cost of a 2012 12-core 3.33ghz machine. At best it could buy some time.
So far I've been underwhelmed by Apples new machines. It seems to me that they have all but abandoned Mac Pro audio users in favor of video 'Content Creators' as their architecture is heavily biased toward video rather than audio production. I guess I have to go back to the drawing board and reevaluate my life choices

You are SOOOO wrong. The Apple Silicon Macs simply rock audio.

Moving from my 12 core 5,1 Mac Pro to my M1 Mac Studio Ultra (and before that, my M1 MacBook Air for my live work with MainStage) was like a whole new world. Both are still going strong.

And I don't give a hoot about video (unless I'm scoring a film, in which case I am still very happy.)

But, with the required hardware changes moving to Apple Silicon will cost a lot more than upgrading to a 5,1 Mac Pro. I should note that a 5,1 12 core 3.33 or 3.46 will still run circles around your 3,1 Octo. It was film scoring that brought mine to its knees, but it is still very serviceable for audio work. I bet someone here would be happy to sell you one at a very good price.

EDIT: Just checked Geekbench. a 12-core 3.33 5,1 doubles the fastest 3,1 8-core Mac Pro multicore score.

[mikehalloran]

So far I've been underwhelmed by Apples new machines. It seems to me that they have all but abandoned Mac Pro audio users in favor of video …

Really? Because hardware that was rendered obsolete in 2013 no longer works?

There were some comparison tests done after the iMac Pro came out and the after the 300 track cap was removed in Logic. These are track counts with separate instances of VIs plus a reverb and a CPU intense convo reverb on each track (separate instances spreads the load among the cores). Tracks were added until the meters showed that not all were playing back. All were tested with 32GB RAM and the 2012 had been upgraded to an SSD. Here was the maximum track count:

2012 Mac Pro 5.1, 12 core: 148

2013 Mac Pro 6.1, 12 Core: 300 and it was a strain

2017 iMac Pro 10 core (2nd to the bottom of the line): 1,000 — Logic could do more but the tester stopped adding tracks. I owned a 14 core, then later an 18 core ($12,000 fully loaded): Wow!

2018 Mac Mini : 1,000 — testing stopped, same as the iMP. Apple announces that all Macs with the T2 chip and 10GB Ethernet could be linked as one to harness the combined power. They demonstrated up to 20 Minis so linked crunching monster AV files at the WWDC (I was there and saw this). Some 2017 Macs including the iMP and MBP have T2 chips also as did all Macs from 2018 on until Apple Silicon integrated the functionality into the M1/2/3.

2019 Mac Pro 7.1: Track count not an issue but Apple announced that slave computers for VIs were no longer necessary. They didn't mention VEP but everyone knew what they meant. Although T2 Macs can still be linked, no one talked about it anymore. Maximum price: over $53,000 fully loaded with $18K GPU upgrades (monitors etc. extra).

Apple Silicon: It's assumed that track count is no longer an issue with DAWs where it is unlimited. Linking can still be done but why? Most expensive Mac Pro is under $13,000 — a loaded Studio M2 Ultra 192G RAM/8TB internal storage) is the same except no PCIe slots and it has fewer ports for under $9,000. There are bargains to be had in the Refurb Store — just sayin'.

Yes, the big gains are on the GPU side but the audio hurdle was cleared years ago.

[Clarar]

This has been discussed in many threads over the last 13 or so years. James is right. MOTU would have to make a new PCIe card with upgradeable firmware and that never happened. No solution or workaround has been found including external PCIe boxes, the 2019 Mac Pro 7.1 or the current 2023 M2 Mac Pro.

The 2012 Mac Pro 5.1 was the last Mac that could run the 424e card. It supports Catalina. There are hacks that can get it running over later macOS and a cottage industry of CPU and GPU upgrades for these and the 4.1 that preceded it. Tons of threads here, GearSpace and Macrumors on how to do this.

Windows machines can still be built that hold this card.

Drivers are not the issue, however as the 424e uses the MOTU Audio Installer and builds exist that work over Sonoma and Windows 11.

It's disheartening to hear that despite years of discussion, MOTU hasn't provided a solution for their PCIe card compatibility beyond the 2012 Mac Pro 5.1. The lack of a firmware-upgradable PCIe card is a significant limitation, especially with the evolution of Mac hardware. While hacks may extend its usability, relying on outdated systems isn't sustainable in the long run.

The fact that Windows machines can still accommodate the card highlights a missed opportunity for MOTU to adapt to changing technological landscapes. It's frustrating for users invested in MOTU products to face such limitations, especially considering the advancements in both macOS and hardware.

While drivers might not be the primary issue, the inability to update the firmware to ensure compatibility with newer Mac systems is a substantial roadblock. It's concerning that even with the release of the 2019 Mac Pro 7.1 and beyond, a viable solution hasn't emerged.

The community's efforts to find workarounds demonstrate the dedication of MOTU users, but it's unfortunate that they're forced to resort to unofficial methods. MOTU's failure to address this issue could lead to users seeking alternative solutions, impacting their loyalty to the brand.

Ultimately, it's crucial for MOTU to acknowledge and address this issue promptly. Providing a firmware-upgradable PCIe card or exploring alternative solutions could salvage the relationship with loyal customers and ensure continued support in an ever-evolving tech landscape.Insta pro

[HCMarkus]

I doubt MOTU will invest the required resources to serve the very small minority of current PCIe 424 users who are willing to spend the substantial dollars required to purchase a 7.1 or later Mac Pro.

If one is willing to pay the major premium Apple demands for PCIe slots, it would seem that the cost of new USB or Thunderbolt audio interfaces would be manageable. Alternately, for the $3000 one must spend to get Apple PCI (when compared to an otherwise identical Mac Studio), one's audio interfaces can be replaced with current (and superior) models like the 24ai and 24ao.

[Renaissance Man]

The 24 Ai and Ao offerings may indeed be better with their ESS Sabre32™ converters, however the 24io has 24 inputs AND 24 outputs. This requires buying two units (1-24 Ai and 1-Ao) to have the same I/O as the 24io. Further, the "equivalent replacement" (828) for the 2408 Mk III has one less bank of light pipe I/O than the 2408 MKIII (an issue for me because I utilize lightpipe). The bottom line is that it's not an inexpensive venture to replace my MOTU hardware "apples for apples" (in addition to a new Mac Studio, hub, multiple hard drive enclosure, multiple MIDI I/O interface, and so on). Basically dropping over 15 or 20 grand to get the latest and greatest.
I've used MOTU hardware and software since DP2.7. This whole situation certainly has me going back to the drawing board and yes, my loyalty to MOTU has suffered because of it.

[mikehalloran]

So you are complaining that hardware made 25 years ago (or more) no longer works in current Macs (DP 2.7 was released 1999) — ok, the 424e is about 20 years old. Still…

Old Macs that run the 424e can be kept running but not on the current OS. New Macs run circles around the most tricked out versions of the 2012 Mac Pro. Windows computers can be built to run this old gear. If you want to make music on it, still possible.

Apple changed the firmware requirements eleven years ago in 2013 and MOTU never built a 424e with upgradeable firmware.

Am I missing anything here?

At NAMM, I spend some time with the person who owns my 2408/324 system purchased in 1998 for use on my Beige G3 with DP 2.3. She asked if I wanted it back. Uhhhhhh... no, thank you.

[James Steele]

Yeah... I understand your disappointment, but there was no indication at the time MOTU manufactured those cards (I still have mine and an HD192 and 24I/O that are sitting in storage... haven't sold them yet) that Apple was going to change architecture like they did. I really can't fault MOTU for not making them flashable. I imagine it would have added on to the cost of the card itself and again, no clear indication it was going to be necessary. It's a gamble. You can try and "future proof" your product, but you're still guessing. I'd also mention that IIRC, Universal Audio did the same thing and only their PCIe UAD-2 OCTO card could have the firmware upgraded.

Again, this is unfortunate, but it's a fact of life. I had to ditch all my PCIe stuff when I got my Mac Studio. I bought an 828es and a 24Ai, and I gave up Direct Hardware Playthough which I wish MOTU could implement again in DP for newer hardware. Not sure why not, but that's another topic.

[HCMarkus]

The 24 Ai and Ao offerings may indeed be better with their ESS Sabre32™ converters, however the 24io has 24 inputs AND 24 outputs. This requires buying two units (1-24 Ai and 1-Ao) to have the same I/O as the 24io. Further, the "equivalent replacement" (828) for the 2408 Mk III has one less bank of light pipe I/O than the 2408 MKIII (an issue for me because I utilize lightpipe). The bottom line is that it's not an inexpensive venture to replace my MOTU hardware "apples for apples" (in addition to a new Mac Studio, hub, multiple hard drive enclosure, multiple MIDI I/O interface, and so on). Basically dropping over 15 or 20 grand to get the latest and greatest.
I've used MOTU hardware and software since DP2.7. This whole situation certainly has me going back to the drawing board and yes, my loyalty to MOTU has suffered because of it.

You could buy a 24a1, 24ao and 828 for the extra money you have to spend to get a current Mac with PCIe.

How about a 24 ai and ao for $2k; lots of litepipe I/O included. Or buy any manufacturer's gear you wish... you'll still spend less than you would to get PCIe on a Mac. Or move to a PC.

[Renaissance Man]

Thank you. I appreciate all of your constructive comments. Have some thinking and research to do. This is a good time to rethink my work flow...

[HCMarkus]

Thank you. I appreciate all of your constructive comments. Have some thinking and research to do. This is a good time to rethink my work flow...

If you lived closer (I'm west coast) I'd let you borrow my 3.33 5,1 12 core to see if it would be a viable interim solution. Anyway, good luck getting it all sorted.