MOTU Thunderbolt 2 Interface and Thunderbolt 4

[CharlzS]

16A does not work with ANY Thunderbolt (2,3,4) on PC. I have tried both the Apple and the Star*** something adapters and nothing works.

MOTU AVB interfaces do work with the Apple TB2 to TB3 on Windows TB3 PCs. Unfortunately, with the latest releases of TB4 on PCs (and I believe Macs also) everyone's SOL. Due to some obscure security issue Intel changed the firmware to NOT recognize TB1 and TB2 devices no matter how they're connected. Here's the best discussion of the issue that I've found: https://www.reddit.com/r/Thunderbolt/co ... ility_why/

Don't be too quick to blame MOTU on this one. There may be nothing they can do other than a new rev of the AVB devices with TB3/4 chip sets. I would speculate that this also has something to do with the lack of availability of AVB interfaces.

[mikehalloran]

16A does not work with ANY Thunderbolt (2,3,4) on PC. I have tried both the Apple and the Star*** something adapters and nothing works.

MOTU AVB interfaces do work with the Apple TB2 to TB3 on Windows TB3 PCs. Unfortunately, with the latest releases of TB4 on PCs (and I believe Macs also) everyone's SOL. Due to some obscure security issue Intel changed the firmware to NOT recognize TB1 and TB2 devices no matter how they're connected. Here's the best discussion of the issue that I've found: https://www.reddit.com/r/Thunderbolt/co ... ility_why/

Don't be too quick to blame MOTU on this one. There may be nothing they can do other than a new rev of the AVB devices with TB3/4 chip sets. I would speculate that this also has something to do with the lack of availability of AVB interfaces.

I'm not doubting you on the PC but that is not correct for the Mac.

In the red screen shot from yesterday, the 860 and 870 SSDs are sitting in a TB 2 dock connected through the Apple TB2–TB3 adapter to my TB4 Studio. The Aura P12 is sitting in a 2 Lane Envoy Express TB3 enclosure connected with a TB3 cable.

In the other screen shot from a few minutes ago, the only difference is that the Aura P12 is now sitting in a 4 Lane ACASIS TBU405 USB 4 enclosure connected with a USB4 cable that's backward compatible to USB 3.2 gen 2 (was USB 3.1).

Screenshot 2023-11-22 at 5.09.28 PM.png (78.46 KiB) Viewed 2161 times

Screenshot 2023-11-24 at 11.47.52 AM.png (77.68 KiB) Viewed 2161 times

[mikehalloran]

…
Due to some obscure security issue Intel changed the firmware to NOT recognize TB1 and TB2 devices no matter how they're connected. Here's the best discussion of the issue that I've found: https://www.reddit.com/r/Thunderbolt/co ... ility_why/

At the risk of disagreeing with anyone on Reddit, I'm pretty certain that's a crock. MacOS Ventura 13.6.1 included the latest firmware update for my Intel iMac Pro and that TB2 dock connected just fine as did my 828mkII through the Apple FW–TB1 adapter.

Per Intel's latest revision to their published Thunderbolt 4 brochure:
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... olt-4.html

…
Versatile connectivity. Thunderbolt 4 ports are compatible with many connection standards, including previous versions of Thunderbolt™, USB, DisplayPort, and PCle. The ports fit standard USB-C type connectors.
What can you connect with Thunderbolt 4?

Thunderbolt™ devices. Connect devices bearing the Thunderbolt™ logo, including docks, displays, storage, and video capture devices. Thunderbolt™ 3 devices and cables are compatible with Thunderbolt 4 ports. Older Thunderbolt devices will work too, but require an adapter

and so on…

I know this is a recent revision because, when I looked at this last month, it stated that TB4 allowed four TB3 devices to connect to a TB4 port. Now it agrees with Apple that you can connect five.

That Microsoft might be the culprit is something I'll believe in a second. A friend of mine was hired by MS to bring their various codes including TCP/IP to standards (I'll spare everyone why I know about this) but retired fifteen years later without having accomplished that goal. Mind you, this guy wrote LanMan (which became Win NT) in college and later AltaVista, the first search engine for DEC because he wanted to know how big the internet was.

Don't be too quick to blame MOTU on this one. There may be nothing they can do other than a new rev of the AVB devices with TB3/4 chip sets. I would speculate that this also has something to do with the lack of availability of AVB interfaces.

Quite possible.

[ecarbone51]

Hi,

This board is not affiliated with MOTU and none of us who regularly post here work for them. That said, I think we all can empathise with your pain. Who wants a system that doesn't just work?

Unfortunately, the fact is that few PC makers implemented the full TB Spec until those that recently released TB4 PCs (supposedly — see the next post).

It's possible that someone may be able to help but we need a lot more information beginning with your hardware and OS. Also, exactly what TB cable(s) are you using? A link to where you purchased the cable will help.

I had a custom built laptop (Clevo, 13Gen I9 64ram) put together with the builder stating that it had the latest TB4 spec that was backward compatible. Again, Motu has known about this and DONE NOTHING to warn purchasers. If they are not affiliated with this forum they should be. If they are not reading it, even more of a reason to stay away from their products.

[mikehalloran]

Hi,

This board is not affiliated with MOTU and none of us who regularly post here work for them. That said, I think we all can empathise with your pain. Who wants a system that doesn't just work?

Unfortunately, the fact is that few PC makers implemented the full TB Spec until those that recently released TB4 PCs (supposedly — see the next post).

It's possible that someone may be able to help but we need a lot more information beginning with your hardware and OS. Also, exactly what TB cable(s) are you using? A link to where you purchased the cable will help.

I had a custom built laptop (Clevo, 13Gen I9 64ram) put together with the builder stating that it had the latest TB4 spec that was backward compatible. Again, Motu has known about this and DONE NOTHING to warn purchasers. If they are not affiliated with this forum they should be. If they are not reading it, even more of a reason to stay away from their products.

As for being indepent, that's between James and MOTU. I can tell you that, being independent allows us to post information on unsupported MOTU devices. This helps people.

I've posted a link to the latest TB4 spec and quoted the relevant passages about backward compatibility. I even noted a change from that document showing that it is recent.

It can also be your machine. That the builder stated he is compliant with TB4 doesn't mean a thing if it doesn't work, does it? Of course not.

It can be a Microsoft issue for which there is nothing that MOTU can do. I worked for many years at a company who dealt with Microsoft compatibility for such clients and government agencies as ... I'll just say that you've heard of them all. That's the short version of why I know so much about Standards.

The cold hard fact is that Apple does follow the TB4 spec. It works and I have the screen shots to prove it. Despite what Charles posted, if this was an Intel issue, a firmware update would have crippled it for the Mac, too.

Then there is the TB2 cable — the one thing I can look up to discern whether it is or is not part of the problem. There are MDP cables with the same plugs that are not Thunderbolt 1/2. So-called "Thunderbolt compatible" is a useless marketing term that means less than zero—it fools people into buying things that won't work. I'm guessing that not providing that info when I asked specifically means that you are more interested in having the argument. I'm not.

I will recommend getting one of these cables. If it doesn't make a difference, you can kick it back to Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/OWC-Premium-Thun ... ref=sr_1_5

[ecarbone51]

I'm "not interested" in an argument. My purpose of the past post(s) is to warn people not to spend their money on a Motu/PC/TB device because in all likelihood its not going to work. I purchased the Apple cable and adapter along with another adapter suggested on this forum. While I do not have the links to the other cables I have tried i am smart enough to spot the vendor "Thunderbolt compatible" BS and stayed away. I am on extended vacation and in the spring I will make one more futile attempt and try the above suggested cable. I very much appreciate the work/research people on this forum have provided but again, to beat a dead horse, it should not have been necessary because Motu should be publishing a warning on their TB/PC compatibility.

[James Steele]

I had a custom built laptop (Clevo, 13Gen I9 64ram) put together with the builder stating that it had the latest TB4 spec that was backward compatible. Again, Motu has known about this and DONE NOTHING to warn purchasers. If they are not affiliated with this forum they should be. If they are not reading it, even more of a reason to stay away from their products.

Oh boy... where to start? First off, they may or not be reading this forum. They have no obligation to and they're not a huge company. In a time where we are seeing all this consolidation and huge private equity firms swallowing up music tech companies left and right, MOTU is probably one of the few remaining independent privately owned companies left. They're a little busy and them not always reading a small, user-run forum doesn't seem like a reason to dismiss them. They probably are relying on their own tech support system and expect peopel to come to them.

I'm "not interested" in an argument. My purpose of the past post(s) is to warn people not to spend their money on a Motu/PC/TB device because in all likelihood its not going to work.

I'd substitute "people" with "custom built Windows computer users." Not that it does you much good, but those of us on the Macintosh side of the things aren't having the same issues. Probably due to the standardization of the hardware. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I do know that on the PC side of things are are various types of processors, motherboards, etc. and varying degrees of support for standards. I'm not saying MOTU should just write that off, but it's more difficult to track those issues down. I know that when we are having problems with our system, others' experiences don't matter, but your situation may or may not be typical.

Anyway... this is a user supported board (I'm the user that pays for and maintains this), so we do the best we can and anybody who jumps in and tries to help does so of their own goodwill. They don't get paid to do that. It's just users trying too help other users.

[Sudosumadcs]

I run my 1248 using a thunderbolt4 ex (also have 16a and 24Ao with the same results). You simply do not update the bios to the latest TB firmware since backwards compatibility is disabled with the latest firmware. Stick to the OG firmware use the apple dongle and it works!

I have told MOTU about this already with complete details of how to have ANY TB2 device work with this PCI card.

AMD 5900X
PINNACLE KONDUIT 128GB DD4 3600
XFX 6800XT
ASUS ROG STRIX B550-A GAMING
TBEX4 CARD
TI FW PCIE CARD... WITH FOCUSRITE LM32 WORKING

[timbraun]

Interesting!

Is the tbex 4 card like this one : https://www.quietpc.com/asus-tbex-4

Did you plug in a "14-1 thunderbolt header cable" into the motherboard?

Tim