I just bought one of these!

[James Steele]

Just scored a deal on a used Avid S3 on eBay. Going deeper into the Eucon ecosystem!

[Killahurts]

Wow, that's cool! I'm interested to know how it works with DP.. I know it probably works well enough in Pro Tools, which is my second DAW.

[James Steele]

Wow, that's cool! I'm interested to know how it works with DP.. I know it probably works well enough in Pro Tools, which is my second DAW.

Yeah... I got a pretty good deal on it. These units were originally 5K and they were originally for live use for their VENUE system I believe? That's why there's a USB port on the back for a mouse and keyboard. That's for live mode when you've got it plugged into their system for that. It doesn't do anything when connected via Ethernet to a Mac. So Avid added Eucon support to these and added a studio mode to make it function as a Eucon control surface. It also has an AVB audio interface built in, so in theory I might be able to integrate that into my MOTU system as extra I/O. But because they were originally designed for live use and touring, they're built much tougher than S1 or the Artist Series. It has a metal chassis and higher quality encoders and faders, etc.

I got it for $2K and free shipping on eBay. Its in mint condition according to the seller. It looks pretty immaculate in the pics but I'll find out Thursday or Friday. One reason prices have dropped so much on the used ones is that Avid announced that the S3 is an End Of Life product and they will stop officially supporting them after 12/31/26. Some people say you're better off getting two S1s side by side, but I like this form factor and lower profile better. My plan is to use this along with my iPad on a stand just to the side running the Avid Control iOS app. That way I'll have all the touch screen functions, soft keys, all the things I had with my MC Control touchscreen, but bigger, brighter and easier to read. I know a popular combo is the S2 plus the Avid Dock, but sadly the way my studio desk is designed, there just isn't room for that, which is a bummer.

Another thing I've discovered is the S3 is supported with an app called Avid Control Desktop which runs on Mac or Windows. It's an on screen meter bridge app that can float above other apps and in theory, I could set my S3 directly in front of my 4K Samsung TV that I use for a monitor then position the floating Avid Control Desktop meter bridge at the bottom of my 4K screen and size it and align it so the meters on that app line up with the channel strips on the S3. I run 3 monitors, and I have enough screen real estate with the 4K as my main monitor, that I won't mind adjusting all my Window Sets so that I don't use the bottom 1/5-1/6 of the screen and just let that be for the onscreen Avid Control Desktop meters. (The S3 does have the small meters on the unit itself next to the faders, but having a configurable on screen meter bridge might be nice).

Another thing that S3 supports that my old MC/Artists do not is plugin mapping. You've always, AFAIK, been able to use the control surface to navigate to an insert, press an encoder and the plugin on that insert's GUI will open and you can then adjust the parameters using the encoders. You can page through the parameters 8 at a time (if you have one Mix unit for example) or 16 at a time if you have the S3. What plugin mapping allows you to do is rearrange the parameters that appear above the encoders so the most useful ones (to you) appear first and in the order you want. You save that map and from then on, any time an instance of that plugin is opened using the control surface, the parameters that you deem most useful will be right there were you want them. Very cool.

The only risk here is that it is unsupported and if it breaks it could be hard to get parts. But as the prices drop, the risk is less. Some on the Avid DUC have said I can have the seller transfer to me via Avid's site and then I could pay for a service contract or something like that where if it breaks they'll do repairs (which I might probably still have to pay for). That's one thing about Avid it seems: there's a charge for every little thing. Just look at how you have to pay up every year to keep support for "perpetual licenses." I have to pay $199 in October to extend my Pro Tools Studio support. If it lapses, it may be hard to get a perpetual license again and I'd have to go subscription. So I'm not so keen on sending more money to Avid. I may see if I can buy some spare fader assemblies. I've been told they still have them. Another reason Avid gives for discontinuing the S3 was difficulty getting parts. So one route is for me to keep my eyes out for a unit that might be non-functional or have some cosmetic issues and buy it so it could be cannibalized for parts to keep the main one going if need be. I know a great technician who could probably repair it if he had the parts.

So yeah... long as it doesn't break down and I get several years out of it, I'll be happy. Plus, it's not going to magically stop working after 2026 just because it's EOL. The Eucon protocol will likely live on and even my ancient Euphonix MC Mix and MC Control units (built before Avid bought Euphonix and simply put them in a black housing instead of silver with a different logo) are still working. So barring mechanical or other breakdown, S3 should work a good long time. I'm hoping that because it was designed for live use and over engineered a bit, that being babied in a studio setting will extend it's lifespan. One guy on Avid DUC said he had a facility that had three of them and they all had to have OLED displays replaced. That kind of scared me, but I think that's rare. Knock on wood.

Oh... there IS one catch to all of this which I just remembered... I'll explain in next post....

[James Steele]

So what is the one issue right now with DP and Eucon?

There IS one issue right now that I have reported to both Avid and MOTU that dare I say plagues DP. Firstly, in order to use latest iOS Avid Control app you have to run compatible version of Eucon on your Mac. Right now that means you have to run the most recent which is Eucon 2023.6. And DP has a problem with that version and is very prone to crashing when using it under certain conditions.

The crash seems to occur when the tracks that are displayed on the control surface change rapidly. For example if you have the Eucon configured in DP's Control Surface Setup with the option "Pin to Focus Window" for example, if you change windows or go through different Window Sets it might be that different tracks are shown/hidden depending if you're in the Mixing Board, Sequence Editor, Track Overview, etc. If you jump around through these window and the tracks on the surfaces are quickly showing/hiding DP can and will crash. Crashlogs will point to a Eucon issue. The way to minimize it is set Eucon in the Control Surface Setup to "Show All Tracks" which kind defeats the purpose as the control surface will be showing tracks that aren't play enabled, etc. but this way you can go from window to window and the control surface won't constantly changing which tracks are displayed.

Hope that's not too convoluted. The crash still can happen when a project loads. It's not uncommon that I have to try twice to load a project when I'm using Eucon. Oh... here's another weird thing though... that crashing all goes away if you launch DP in Rosetta!!

So all this info, trust me, has been relayed to MOTU and Avid and I've even made videos with my iPhone so you can see my screen and the control surface and watch the crash happen. I've sent MOTU (and Avid) crash logs and MOTU I believe has been able to reproduce the problem and from what I've heard they're going to try and figure it out along with Avid. I'm truly counting on that to happen.

Oh... one last issue with DP and Eucon:
You can use a Eucon control surface to instantiate a new plug in an empty insert. It works really great on basically every DAW except DP. You see, all the other DAWs I've test this with (Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase), let you navigate a hierarchy on the control surfaces screens to locate the plugin in you want. So when you put it in the "add plugin" mode and select the empty insert slot. you want... you'll get choices on the screens that correspond to the encoders that might categories like dynamics, eq, reverb, etc. You can then press the encoder for the category you desire... then your down one level deeper and your next choice might be manufacturer... you page through manufacturers, then choose one, and then then finally you see plug ins and you push the encoder by the plugin you want to add and it's done.

The key is Logic, Pro Tools, and Cubase all have a hierarchal system where you drill down, narrowing your choices which makes it much more manageable to find a plugin if you have roughly 1,100 like I do. It's a must. DP, on the other hand has NO HIERARCHY. In DP, you go to add a plugin... you press the encoder for the empty slot and you're at the root level of 1,100 (in my case) plug-ins. I can only page through eight at a time on my MC Mix. What's 1,100/8? 137.5. Do I want to have to hit the page right button 100 times or more to find the plugin I want? Or page right 138 times if it's the the last in the list? Nope. So it's virtually useless to try to add a plugin to an insert in DP using a Eucon control surface. I've pleaded with them to solve this. It might be some of the problem is the great flexibility DP allows to customize the plugin selection menu. But I've even suggested that even if they just hard coded it to manufacturer being the first level, it would be far from perfect but at least nominally USEFUL!! Hopefully they'll fix this at some point as well.

Okay... I'm done... are you sorry you asked by now?

[James Steele]

Right now that means you have to run the most recent which is Eucon 2023.6. And DP has a problem with that version and is very prone to crashing when using it under certain conditions.

The crash seems to occur when the tracks that are displayed on the control surface change rapidly.

Just wanted to follow up with some good news. I heard from a “reliable source” at MOTU that they’ve fixed the problem and it should be in the next DP update which allegedly isn’t too far off!