Macbook Air M2 and DP 11 Disappointing Performance

[James Steele]

Nice... I remember the Wave! I moved away as a kid in the late 70s. I think the Wave is no more. Did you every know any local Hawaiian musicians named Harry Koizumi? I went to high school with him. Also a drummer named Mark Caldera. Didn't go to school with him, but I was briefly in a band with him and Harry in the 80s in Los Angeles. We did the starving musician thing... a bunch of guys sleeping on the floor in a tiny apartment living off of Top Ramen, first in Azusa and then La Crescenta. LOL. Oh well... I can say I got to play upstairs at Madam Wong's West because of that band. Good guys.

[stublito]

The Wave hung on till 2006, there's a luxury condo on most of that block now. The 7-11 is still there tho!

I still see Mark occasionally. He's a maintenance guy at the Bishop museum and plays regularly.

I played bass in bands with him drumming back then. A monster. He also had a run in Vancouver late 80s singing in a recording band with Loverboy's guitarist Paul Dean, but it (obviously) never took.

Great guy.

Peter

[Michael Canavan]

Last word from me on this.

I just moved the project back to my 2015 11" (!!!) MBA 2 core 2.6 i7 (I love it because it' so tiny.) At a 64 buffer, processor idle is about 40, and 90ish when a track is running (with the odd red peak.) I'l prolly just keep it at 128 for gigs.

I'm an IT admin, database programmer, a synth programmer since the 80s, and performing musician, and have been running live tracks in DP since version 7.

As far as user error, when I got the M2, all I did was buy and install DP 11, D/L all the newest installers for the Waves, Roland and Korg stuff, plugged in my (class compliant) USB 2x2, and load the chunks from the old project. And waited for DP to analyze the chunks...

I just can't imagine being so incompetent that I can somehow make a project that runs fine on my 8 year old laptop max out DP's audio engine on a brand new computer. Unless the software and hardware are not talking to each other...

The M2 is hard limiting DP's processor access to 15% of the M2's processing power, according to Activity Monitor.) I had NOTHING to do with that.

Again, regardless of MOTU tech supports suggestion, Live Performance mode literally is set up to use more CPU power not less. Like more than one person has mentioned, if you see 80-90% in DP and 15% in Activity Monitor then it's blatantly obvious that you're loading a single track with heavy plugins and expecting the results to be different. The difference in machines is 8 cores VS 2 but the way DP performance meter works it will tell you the highest cores rating, not a culmination of all cores. So IMO you returned the device because you saw a "potential" issue.

In any multi core machine it's best to recognize the limits of loading one track VS multiple tracks. I'm certain that you would get far more performance out of the M2, but again, on any machine you can overload a single core by overloading a single track in a DAW.

Why am I certain of this? because you're using it for live performance, i.e. record arming tracks, which loads more CPU on a single core. I'm a bit of a geek about this stuff and spent some hours going over how DP and various other DAWs react to track loading, arming and CPU. Plus, there really isn't a single DAW that doesn't over react to CPU loading on a single core, since it's possible to glitch audio even on a 28 core Intel or 24 core M2 doing so.

Plus, this is the first reply where you're now claiming that the M2 was maxed out compared to your older laptops. Again, you obviously didn't want help, you wanted to complain about a problem you perceived, that frankly I don't think really existed in the first place. Never trust a performance meter in a DAW as being all that's left for that DAW, think of it as all that's left for that track. That's all.

[stublito]

I learnt how to use DP live correctly by reading an article by Madonna's keyboard tech late 90s, apparently you are not familiar with the technique.

All real time audio input and output, vocal and instrument processing (Guitar Rig) and mixing is done in a V-rack, using Aux channels (that cannot be armed to record.) I also have synth plugs (instrument tracks) in the v-rack.

One frugal EQ loads with each chunk to tweak the tone of the backing track. The chunks are otherwise MIDI tracks; to select and play virtual instruments, change guitar presets and control the vocal plugs and harmonizers. I do route 3 audio tracks (via busses) from the V-rack to the chunks (and back out again) to access (real time) track volume automation, but just for routing, no plugs. I did disable those as part of my troubleshooting, to no effect.

AFTER ALL OF THIS DISCUSSION, what I could have done is try using multiple v-racks to see if each V-Rack would would access a different core in the M2 processor. Can someone please try that and report back?

But as I said, the experiment has ended and deemed a failure due to bleeding edge timing. I'll have a go at it again when my trusty old 11" MBA bite the dust.

PS This is for my single/duo act. I also have a 2012 MBP 16GB still holding on, USB'd to my Presonus Series III mixer, for my band rig. DP hosts Waves, Nectar, synth plugs and Guitar Rig and does track playback. The difference is that the Presonus does the mixing

[HCMarkus]

I learnt how to use DP live correctly by reading an article by Madonna's keyboard tech late 90s

That's a long time ago... was DP pre-rendering anything back then?

You've moved back to what is working for you; that is good. But you might want to do a little experimentation with your rig to see if avoiding Live Mode might help you get a little more headroom with DP11. IIRC, Auxes are NOT pre-rendered regardless, so it may not make a difference, but favorable differences would likely appear if you are using any pre-recorded MIDI/VI or Audio tracks.

[stublito]

I still have DP9 on the little guy, no plans or need to upgrade.

Did hafta update the Waves when I upgraded to OS X 10.15, but that's the absolute last change I'm making.

Peter

[mikehalloran]

I learnt how to use DP live correctly by reading an article by Madonna's keyboard tech late 90s, apparently you are not familiar with the technique.

That was DP 2.

DP 3 was released 2001 and DP 4, a complete rewrite for MacOS X was released in 2003.

I'm an IT admin, database programmer, a synth programmer since the 80s, and performing musician, and have been running live tracks in DP since version 7.

Puffing the resume… oh goody!

In a previous life, I worked as an auto mechanic between gigs here in the Silicon Valley. Why would I mention this? Well, we had a saying that our "worst nightmare was an engineer with a Volvo". They loved to explain to us how much more they knew than the ones who designed their car and would insist we set it up to their ridiculous specs … but why doesn't it run (or handle or get decent tire wear etc.) right? I programmed a code (SCO UNIX) that, when entered, would print a paragraph on the final copy voiding all warranties on service work when we went through that nonsense. In California, everything has to be in writing.

[stublito]

Of course I misspoke, it was 2010 ish, and that article I now remember was actually posted on MOTUs web site. Please forgive an old guy who has used computers in music since almost day one (Atari ST) who can't keep track of the passing decades.

BTW, the "Puff" resume was a specific response to a previous post concerning my competence. However I did relate to your anecdote. I have found that musicians are able to use their creativity to work out solutions to (and have the drive to want to solve) problems that civilians cannot.

Peter

[Michael Canavan]

I learnt how to use DP live correctly by reading an article by Madonna's keyboard tech late 90s

That's a long time ago... was DP pre-rendering anything back then?

You've moved back to what is working for you; that is good. But you might want to do a little experimentation with your rig to see if avoiding Live Mode might help you get a little more headroom with DP11. IIRC, Auxes are NOT pre-rendered regardless, so it may not make a difference, but favorable differences would likely appear if you are using any pre-recorded MIDI/VI or Audio tracks.

Auxes are not pre rendered, essentially if anyone else is running into live performance issues and track stacking, it's best to use the Activity monitor in multi core CPU mode to see where cores are distributing CPU. Couple that with the Effect Performance Window in DP and you can narrow down any issues.

Again, I'm certain almost nothing in this thread relating to "teething" issues with Apple Silicon has any merit, it's just unfamiliarity with DP11, and a lack of patience. there's just a handful of actively supported plug ins at this point that haven't made it to Apple Silicon, and without any hyperbole, it's just miles and miles better.

[stublito]

My buddy who is an Apple developer and tour level computer music tech has just replied to an email.

He tells me that you should NEVER run VIs directly inside DP, precisely because you cannot control core/thread usage. The correct method is to use a Vrack for real time audio processing, but to use Main Stage to host all VIs. The reason is that MainStage lets you explicitly define Core usage (which totally makes sense as it's an Apple product.)

https://support.apple.com/en-in/guide/m ... 9453e0/mac

And NEVER use Roland Plugs in a pro situation, they are horribly written (but that's his story, not mine, so please don't comment on it. His buddy used to code for Roland tho...)

For me, this is the correct/final answer to my initial question. Thanks to everyone for their input.

Peter

[cuttime]

I realize that the OP has returned the Mac. I'm sure someone is getting a very nice refurb model in return. There were two questions about “Rosetta” that were never answered-just a lot of “Auld Lang Syne”. This is fine, but please understand that 25 years of MacOS has passed you by.

[bayswater]

... if anyone else is running into live performance issues and track stacking, it's best to use the Activity monitor in multi core CPU mode to see where cores are distributing CPU. Couple that with the Effect Performance Window in DP and you can narrow down any issues.

Interesting topic. Perhaps one can ask, after decades of advances in computing, when will we reach the point where those who want to do more than watch kitten videos can function without perpetual trouble shooting.

I don't think Peter's annoyance is unjustified. He had a Mac that ran his projects fine; he bought a better faster one, and it didn't. At this late date, why should he have to delve into the technical details of computing to figure this out? I could have figured this out, and I expect Peter could have too, but should he have to? Maybe he should have stuck with it a little longer. I've had a similar experience with recent OS updates. You get it installed and start thinking about all the stuff that doesn't work as it did and think "do I need this right now?". No: "command-delete". Print the Amazon return address label. Back to useful work.

I blame engineering. Consider the example of cars. Engineers developed standards so that if you mastered a few simple skills, once you drive one car, you can drive any other. If you drive on one road you can drive just about anywhere. It doesn't matter where you go, the basic skills will get you there. We haven't reached that point with computers. Apple had a stab with "just works", but it was little more than a dig at incompetence at MS. I've asked engineers why there is no effective equivalent to SAE in computing. The answer is that people who make computers don't give a #@^*. Someone else will deal with it. Even when they do establish a standard, it doesn't last long. They still think if they do thing differently from everyone else they get some sort of competitive advantage.

Some people enjoy delving into these things, but others look on computers as appliances that sit in the background that should just do what they should. It's good to have people interested in covering for those who make computers. They do a lot of work and don't get paid.

Maybe if we got to the point where it "just works", we could rise to James' goal of spending more our time here telling each other about DP tips.

[James Steele]

My buddy who is an Apple developer and tour level computer music tech has just replied to an email.

He tells me that you should NEVER run VIs directly inside DP, precisely because you cannot control core/thread usage. The correct method is to use a Vrack for real time audio processing, but to use Main Stage to host all VIs. The reason is that MainStage lets you explicitly define Core usage (which totally makes sense as it's an Apple product.)

https://support.apple.com/en-in/guide/m ... 9453e0/mac

I've heard similar things, anecdotally, from people who host VIs in Vienna Ensemble Server running locally on the same machine rather than inside DP, which sounds like the same idea basically. They claim they get much better performance overall. Last time I tried this though, I was testing out the new Apple Silicon version of the app and the new native MAS version of the plug and was getting some noticeable latency that I didn't remember when I was using the Audio Unit version. I haven't bothered to investigate that as I don't really do very large projects that would seem to require it.

[James Steele]

Maybe if we got to the point where it "just works", we could rise to James' goal of spending more our time here telling each other about DP tips.

That's a day that will never come. That requires perfection, which I think really is impossible as this stuff continues to become more and more complex.

Besides... it defies human nature.

What motivates a person to go to a forum and take the time to write a post seeking help for themselves to solve a technical problem they are experiencing? Self interest.

What motivates a person to go to a forum and take the time to write a post sharing something they learned so that it could help others? Altruism.

And thus there will always be more of the first group and less of the second. It's been that way since the dawn of time.

[HCMarkus]

Maybe if we got to the point where it "just works", we could rise to James' goal of spending more our time here telling each other about DP tips.

That's a day that will never come. That requires perfection, which I think really is impossible as this stuff continues to become more and more complex.

Besides... it defies human nature.

What motivates a person to go to a forum and take the time to write a post seeking help for themselves to solve a technical problem they are experiencing? Self interest.

What motivates a person to go to a forum and take the time to write a post sharing something they learned so that it could help others? Altruism.

And thus there will always be more of the first group and less of the second. It's been that way since the dawn of time.

Nice post, James. Thank You.

@bayswater, from my perspective, DP11 on my Mac Studio Ultra is far closer to the "it just works" that we seek than anything I've ever run before. I've experienced remarkably few issues in transitioning from my last (Intel) Mac to Apple Silicon, and the Studio's performance has been extremely refreshing. So many boundaries erased. So much freedom of expression. I am very happy.

As some may have noticed, most of my posts here have been responding to others who have run into issues. The couple of challenges I've run into (DP crash when dragging an Audio File from DP to desktop, Video File access crash when running BackBlaze) have been very easy to work around (Export Audio File, Don't run BackBlaze when scoring to picture).

As far as the Peter's reported recommendation that all VIs be run in MainStage... I assume he is discussing live use only. I run MainStage live and it works fine (but I haven't noticed any preferences that give superior control over core usage... I want to and do use all cores when performing). In the studio, DP's pre-rendering makes VIs running within DP work extremely efficiently... I can add as many VIs as my heart desires to a project running 128 buffer.

PS: I totally get the "Never use Roland" advice and have been wondering since the Peter's initial post if the Roland stuff he runs might not be the root of his problems. I never again want to have to program an A-800 from a Mac!

PPS: I am reminded how important it is to provide detailed system and usage info when seeking help. Creating a signature with system info is a great start.