MK5 Dropout/Delay

[mr_woland]

Update: the MK5 went crazy again last Saturday, at the soundcheck...
I've tried everything, from re-installing the firmware, doing a reset, switching it off and on... after 45 minutes it went back to normal, but I'm pretty sure I did nothing special to solve the problem. It seems it just a matter of time.
I played the whole set worried that the Motu could go crazy during the performance (as it did last time too). Thankfully, it worked fine, but it was an horrible experience.

I'm not the only one having this problems, I wonder what I could do.

Since I doubt Motu will address this problem soon, I'll probably ask for a refund and buy a RME.

[chrisdm1978]

My Ultralite mk 5 is sitting unplugged at the moment as I have jobs to get off my desk, gigs to prep, etc etc. I've been using my clarett plus 8pre for 2 weeks instead without a single issue with DP. Doing live rehearsal (live inputs), Composing with virtual instruments, mixing etc. Flawless. I have same computer as you, same OS, same driver, firmware. I have have a friend who I recommended an Ultralite mk5 to last year (before I owned one) who runs an M1 Mac mini. He messaged me out of the blue reporting he's having issues. (this is my second unit by the way). I'm still working with MOTU on what to do. It's starting to look like refund might be the only solution. I've sunk to much time and money into this box. Time is money. It is a stellar unit on paper, but I have not had that experience in the real world sadly.

[chrisdm1978]

Update.....so MOTU has me running some debug software to try and find the problem....it shows USB audio errors, which is no surprise to me as that is the exact issue I and others are having. Have submitted the terminal log to them...lets hope they can get it figured out!

[mr_woland]

Thanks for the update.
MOTU tech support told me to uninstall the MOTU driver and use class compliant driver instead...
But I can't tell if this fix the problem or not, since it happens in a totally random way.
Now seems fine... but it may crash just at the soundcheck, as it happened before!

[chrisdm1978]

Thanks for the update.
MOTU tech support told me to uninstall the MOTU driver and use class compliant driver instead...
But I can't tell if this fix the problem or not, since it happens in a totally random way.
Now seems fine... but it may crash just at the soundcheck, as it happened before!

Sounds like an admission then that the driver is problematic if they are saying not to use their own driver. I just tried the new driver version and firmware version they just released a couple days ago...it became a little more stable, but still clicks, pops, the odd bit crushed sounding moment, and USB audio errors showing in the debug software. It doesn't totally crap out and then become delayed (or hasn't yet) but still not usable for client work. They tell me they "may have something we can try soon", whatever that means. I appreciate they are trying to solve it, but I can't be troubleshooting this stuff forever...I've got projects and sessions to run. I'm running out of patience. I have had ZERO issues with my Focusrite Clarett plus 8pre on my M1max which I bought to go with the Ultralite Mk5, since I liked some of the additional features on the ultralite as the master device (DSP, line ins with no mic pre to pass through for my external pres etc). Thankfully I have that 2nd interface to fall back on. But if they can't solve it soon...I will have to move on and ask for a refund


Here is a sample of what the errors look like in the debug software that correspond with audible bad audio moments.

ERROR: USB Audio: Missed ISOC OUT! (Frame: 1445.7)


ERROR: USB Audio: Missed ISOC OUT! (Frame: 794.1)


ERROR: USB Audio: Missed ISOC OUT! (Frame: 298.6)


ERROR: USB Audio: Missed ISOC IN! (Frame: 1564.2)


ERROR: USB Audio: Received Zero Length OUT! (Frame: 1864.1)


ERROR: USB Audio: Missed ISOC OUT! (Frame: 1422.1)


ERROR: USB Audio: Missed ISOC OUT! (Frame: 1570.0)

I have submitted logs after the new driver/firmware showing similar errors.

[mikehalloran]

Your error messages can be a bad USB cable. USB 3 and USB 2 are separate protocols and a USB 3 cable not wired correctly can have crosstalk issues.

If you are not connecting directly using a USB 2 cable, do so. You can get USB 2 over USB-C if needed. USB-C is a port, not a protocol.

Sounds like an admission then that the driver is problematic if they are saying not to use their own driver.

You might be reading way too much into this.

The Ultralite Mk5 supports Core Audio on the Mac. Period — it does. There is additional functionality and slightly lower RTL with MOTU's driver but no reason to use it unless you need that functionality (consult the manual for details). The difference in RTL is about the same as moving your ears around 12" closer to or further from your monitor speakers. Do the math using the speed of sound at sea level in 30% humidity and you'll see this for yourself.

I have three interfaces using the same chip family from M•Audio and Mackie and neither of those guys offer Mac drivers—Core Audio only.

Windows users must use drivers.

[chrisdm1978]

Your error messages can be a bad USB cable. USB 3 and USB 2 are separate protocols and a USB 3 cable not wired correctly can have crosstalk issues.

If you are not connecting directly using a USB 2 cable, do so. You can get USB 2 over USB-C if needed. USB-C is a port, not a protocol.

Sounds like an admission then that the driver is problematic if they are saying not to use their own driver.

You might be reading way too much into this.

The Ultralite Mk5 supports Core Audio on the Mac. Period — it does. There is additional functionality and slightly lower RTL with MOTU's driver but no reason to use it unless you need that functionality (consult the manual for details). The difference in RTL is about the same as moving your ears around 12" closer to or further from your monitor speakers. Do the math using the speed of sound at sea level in 30% humidity and you'll see this for yourself.

I have three interfaces using the same chip family from M•Audio and Mackie and neither of those guys offer Mac drivers—Core Audio only.

Windows users must use drivers.

Hello Mike, thanks for your insights.

Have been down the cable rabbit hole. I have USB 2 cables over USB C. Have tried multiple, different lengths, cables. I stick to the shorter lengths as cable length can often cause issues. I'm aware of the protocols. I'm also aware of USB compliance and Core Audio. My Focusrite Clarett plus 8pre is also USB 2.0 over USBC. No issues with that unit. Same cables. I've been working with MOTU on this for weeks now since May...they say "it's a very strange case." Yet I see others with identical issues who have the same machines.

As a guitarist and a composer using virtual instruments I absolutely care about the lowest possible latency. Especially for playing guitar through virtual amps. One can be quite sensitive to latency under the finger tips at high speeds. Plus this advertised benefit was part of the reason I bought the unit in the first place, realizing Thunderbolt is faster, but this would be likey good enough. And while the Ultralite supports core audio..doesn't mean it's stable. I have not tried it NOT using their driver yet, though have read of others where it made no difference. But if I can't use the features and drivers designed for the unit, that will likely be a no go for me. It is too bad...this unit was my first pick above all other choices...but I can't use it for clients paying me for work as you can't trust you won't get errors in the recording. Had my Lynx Aurora 8 still had a mixer app that wasn't 32 bit only for their USB interface..I would likely have stuck with it...as it was USB compliant. But I need a routing mixer. The ultralite fit the bill on paper....

[mikehalloran]

Hello Mike, thanks for your insights.
…
As a guitarist and a composer using virtual instruments I absolutely care about the lowest possible latency. … realizing Thunderbolt is faster,

Move your ears 6” closer to your monitor speakers (1.9ms vs 2.4ms vs 3.49ms over Core Audio). That’s how much faster TB3 interfaces are advertising. Again, do the math. Although I calculated it from scratch, the UltraLite User Guide makes it easier:

☛ At sea level, audio travels approximately one foot (30 cm) per millisecond. A latency of ten milliseconds is about the same as being ten feet (three meters) from an audio source

And while the Ultralite supports core audio..doesn't mean it's stable.

How do you know? You haven’t tried it and, until you do, you’re going by what you’ve read on the internet by people whose systems are different than yours.

But if I can't use the features and drivers designed for the unit, that will likely be a no go for me.

Do you even know what those features are? Besides slightly lower RTL, there is only one and that is loopback. CueMix doesn’t require the MOTU driver to run and neither does anything else (on a Mac, that is). If you are using loopback, you do need the MOTU drivers. Otherwise, you don’t.

Advertised RTL on most current interfaces is a marketing gambit and nothing more. Everything is fast. The only way to hear it is to mix the output and input signals and listen to the comb filtering when at the 50/50 position. Your fingers aren’t that fast and the speed of sound is slow. Buffer size has a far greater effect.

For example, with a 32-sample buffer size, an UltraLite-mk5 interface operating at 96 kHz produces round trip latency (RTL) performance of 2.4 milliseconds (ms) on macOS. RTL is the measurement of the time it takes audio to pass from an analog input, through a high- performance DAW host such as Digital Performer, to an analog output.

[chrisdm1978]

I hear what you are saying Mike. But yes even a couple milliseconds of added latency can be irritating, especially for singers actually. The comb filtered chorus effect against ones own voice in their ears is noticeable for sure. I notice it on my own voice right away, even with low buffers. Actually that is the whole reason I wanted the ultralite for some basic DSP so one can avoid passing through the DAW for cue mixes and still have some basic compression, EQ, verb. (It's usually plugins that are the culprit for latency in DAW.) While I can get those (minus Reverb) off my Millennia Stt1, it's a nice feature to have and not be running tubes all the time on basic rehearsal sessions or whatever. Perhaps I will try it without the MOTU driver, but I don't have my hopes up on that, MOTU have not even asked me to try that test yet. I still think their own driver should work for their own device. Loop back is important for some stuff I do with OBS etc. I believe every single feature you pay for should work on a unit you pay hard earned cash on. I guess we'll see what MOTU does. As I said they have been good about trying to solve the issue but it's taking time. I hope they can get it stable...because without that any features are pointless.

[LondonMike]

I came across this thread after a google search about MK5 issues.
Did you ( the OP) ever get a resolution?

I’ve been getting problems with a new MK5 and
Mac Pro late 2013 Monterey and Logic 10.7.7

I trashed the Gen 5 driver from my apps folder and created a new MIDI set up in AudioMidi on the Mac my last session went smoothly.

I have to have a rock solid performance so if troubles reappear I’ll have to send it back and go for UAD or Focusrite or something!