Best Windows laptop for DP10

[rlcartwright]

Hi All:

Sorry for the open-ended question, but although I've been using MOTU on Macs since the mid-80s, my grown daughter wants to expand her musical endeavors with putting together a MOTU/PC laptop system to get her ideas recorded. The is a Windows user, and wants to remain there, and I don't have enough experience with Windows laptops to suggest which one she should buy. She wants to use virtual instruments/sample libraries as well as recording live sources like vocals and guitar. I know she needs to have as much RAM as possible as well as SSDs. Mac laptops have been limited to 16GB RAM (although the new laptops may use more, dunno). I'm thinking that, if she could get a PC laptop that had 32GB that would be great, but I don't know the current state of PC laptops. I'm also thinking one internal SSD of maybe 250-500GB for apps and a second internal SSD (maybe one TB) for sample libraries and projects. She also is thinking of doing video animation on it.

Does such a machine in the PC world exist? She can't spend thousands, but I need to know what brands/models/CPUs you all consider the most reliable and trouble-free. I'm considering recommending either the MOTU M2 or M4 interface to her.

Sorry again for the question. I know that it may be hard to answer, considering all the options.

Best wishes,,

Robert Cartwright
perfectwavedigital.com

[mikehalloran]

Like a Mac these days, get the largest system drive you/she can afford. There hasn’t been advantage to having separate drives for apps and samples etc. since the SATA bus made its appearance nearly 20 years ago. The way that SSDs work, separate drives can restrict your available space and slow you down (except for backup — and that can be done via wireless).

[rlcartwright]

Thanks, Mike: The reason I like a separate drive, or at least a separate partition, is that I can then have a clone of the system drives and apps to clone back to another drive if the SSD goes down. Mixing my OS + apps with project files and samples is hard to deal with. That's my thinking anyway. I know speed-wise it probably doesn't make a difference. I can always have a big, spinning external drive for daily backups, etc.

[mikehalloran]

Thanks, Mike: The reason I like a separate drive, or at least a separate partition, is that I can then have a clone of the system drives and apps to clone back to another drive if the SSD goes down. Mixing my OS + apps with project files and samples is hard to deal with. That's my thinking anyway. I know speed-wise it probably doesn't make a difference. I can always have a big, spinning external drive for daily backups, etc.

Speedwise, it’s convoluted, inefficient and wastes drive space. That may have been perfectly reasonable 20 years ago but things have changed.

For example, no new laptops exist with multiple drives. When you can get up to 8TB, onboard, there is absolutely no need for them anymore. Unless running multiple OS (on a Windows machine?) no need to partition anymore.

Do not try to saddle your daughter with your decades old way of thinking how things need to be done. She might listen but she won’t go there. I’ve a bit of experience in buying computers for my (now grown) daughters.

Multiple backups? Sure but different backup clones of system, apps, VIs etc. are nothing more than you finding multiple ways to waste lots and lots of time. She won’t do it.

[CharlzS]

Some good information here: https://www.musicradar.com/news/best-la ... production
There are some specialty mfgs like this: https://pcaudiolabs.com/

A good source of info is to check out some other DAW forums that have a big PC user base like PT, Cubase/Nuendo and Studio One. As far as preferences, Intel i7 or better - AMD I think is still somewhat tenuous. I like a larger display (17") and you can go 4k but will have to set rez to HD for readability - 4k may be unnecessary expense. NVMe SSDs are way better performers and as Mike has said, it's no longer an issue to have one large drive for performance or backup issues. I can clone my entire 1tb internal NVMe drive to an external USB 3.0 NVMe in < 20 minutes. You can always save your sessions folders to an additional external drive for additional safety. 16GB laptops are common, but 32GB will limit your choices. They are there though - I know at least on model of the HP Envy and the ZBook ($$$) can be configured 32GB. One thing to do regardless of what you buy is to remove all of the installed crap that comes on the machines before you start installing DP. Get it lean. I also prefer Windows Pro. I like having deeper access to configuration options that aren't available in the Home version. You also need to pay close attention to what audio interface you'll be using. Some interface drivers are not "multi-client" and may present issues (search "ASIO multiclient drivers"). Just a couple of things to think about - you can probably figure out during the laptops return window whether or not it's going to work out for you.

[bayswater]

It's true that with today's SSD drives, one large internal drive is all you need. On the other hand, in the practical world, there is nothing wrong with a smaller internal drive for system and apps and externals for other things. I have an external for audio, and an external SSD for samples with a minimal configuration on the internal SSD. I've never had a problem running a test project with 500 simultaneous audio tracks, all with different audio files, with 128 instance of VIs each using 4 samples. The DP meters and Activity Monitor show nothing indicating any problem with drives. Lots of RAM helps. No doubt we could come up with a huge orchestral template running with low latency that would bring this system to its knees, but this is not a problem for me in the real world.

If I could have put a 8T SSD in at the time of purchase for a similar cost, I would have done that, so if a good deal is available, all the better. You can always get a big cheap spinner for backups.

When I buy a new Mac, I have a look at a PC as an alternative. The last time I did this, the only consistently mentioned drawback was with "bargain" configurations that have components that don't work well together. This seems to happen when components make unnecessary calls on system resources and interrupt processing, and interfere with critical timing. Short of becoming an expert on how these systems work, the best approach, as mentioned already, is to see what PC are common in the general world of DAWs including Cubase and Studio One.

[rlcartwright]

Thanks, Mike: The reason I like a separate drive, or at least a separate partition, is that I can then have a clone of the system drives and apps to clone back to another drive if the SSD goes down. Mixing my OS + apps with project files and samples is hard to deal with. That's my thinking anyway. I know speed-wise it probably doesn't make a difference. I can always have a big, spinning external drive for daily backups, etc.

Speedwise, it’s convoluted, inefficient and wastes drive space. That may have been perfectly reasonable 20 years ago but things have changed.

For example, no new laptops exist with multiple drives. When you can get up to 8TB, onboard, there is absolutely no need for them anymore. Unless running multiple OS (on a Windows machine?) no need to partition anymore.

Do not try to saddle your daughter with your decades old way of thinking how things need to be done. She might listen but she won’t go there. I’ve a bit of experience in buying computers for my (now grown) daughters.

Multiple backups? Sure but different backup clones of system, apps, VIs etc. are nothing more than you finding multiple ways to waste lots and lots of time. She won’t do it.

--------------------------------------

Mike, thanks again. However, I would like to know how you back up your system (not just projects). Is there a version of Time Machine in the PC world? Backing up projects is simple and they can be restored quickly. Restoring a non-backed-up system and apps/plugs/prefs along with all the serial numbers, authorizations, etc.from scratch can take a long time. I would rather blow the cloned OS/Apps info back to a new drive and fix a couple of authorizations and get back in a couple of hours. I take it that you do Time Machine-style backups of everything, correct? That would work. Do you do it manually with cloning software, or what? Since I posted on the Windows part of this site, I assumed that replies would be Windows-specific and, therefore, that you would have a Windows-specific methodology. How do you do incremental, bootable backups?

[rlcartwright]

Some good information here: https://www.musicradar.com/news/best-la ... production
There are some specialty mfgs like this: https://pcaudiolabs.com/

A good source of info is to check out some other DAW forums that have a big PC user base like PT, Cubase/Nuendo and Studio One. As far as preferences, Intel i7 or better - AMD I think is still somewhat tenuous. I like a larger display (17") and you can go 4k but will have to set rez to HD for readability - 4k may be unnecessary expense. NVMe SSDs are way better performers and as Mike has said, it's no longer an issue to have one large drive for performance or backup issues. I can clone my entire 1tb internal NVMe drive to an external USB 3.0 NVMe in < 20 minutes. You can always save your sessions folders to an additional external drive for additional safety. 16GB laptops are common, but 32GB will limit your choices. They are there though - I know at least on model of the HP Envy and the ZBook ($$$) can be configured 32GB. One thing to do regardless of what you buy is to remove all of the installed crap that comes on the machines before you start installing DP. Get it lean. I also prefer Windows Pro. I like having deeper access to configuration options that aren't available in the Home version. You also need to pay close attention to what audio interface you'll be using. Some interface drivers are not "multi-client" and may present issues (search "ASIO multiclient drivers"). Just a couple of things to think about - you can probably figure out during the laptops return window whether or not it's going to work out for you.

----------------------------------

CharlzS - thank you for the good information. I was hoping that the PC user base on Motumac would be extensive enough that I wouldn't have to join other non-MOTU groups to glean information, as you suggest. Your info has given me a good starting point.

By the way, assuming that you do use a PC, is there a version of Time Machine in the PC world? Or do you use a PC version of Carbon Copy Cloner to do it manually?

Thanks!

Robert

[rlcartwright]

It's true that with today's SSD drives, one large internal drive is all you need. On the other hand, in the practical world, there is nothing wrong with a smaller internal drive for system and apps and externals for other things. I have an external for audio, and an external SSD for samples with a minimal configuration on the internal SSD. I've never had a problem running a test project with 500 simultaneous audio tracks, all with different audio files, with 128 instance of VIs each using 4 samples. The DP meters and Activity Monitor show nothing indicating any problem with drives. Lots of RAM helps. No doubt we could come up with a huge orchestral template running with low latency that would bring this system to its knees, but this is not a problem for me in the real world.

If I could have put a 8T SSD in at the time of purchase for a similar cost, I would have done that, so if a good deal is available, all the better. You can always get a big cheap spinner for backups.

When I buy a new Mac, I have a look at a PC as an alternative. The last time I did this, the only consistently mentioned drawback was with "bargain" configurations that have components that don't work well together. This seems to happen when components make unnecessary calls on system resources and interrupt processing, and interfere with critical timing. Short of becoming an expert on how these systems work, the best approach, as mentioned already, is to see what PC are common in the general world of DAWs including Cubase and Studio One.

-------------------------------

bayswater-thank you! Good useful information!

Robert

[CharlzS]

By the way, assuming that you do use a PC, is there a version of Time Machine in the PC world? Or do you use a PC version of Carbon Copy Cloner to do it manually?

Window has built in functionality akin to Time Machine called File History that is folder rather than disk oriented. You can set the folders/files to backup, plus the save interval (hourly, daily, etc.) and the retention time (month, year, forever). I have this set to backup to NAS most files in my Documents folder daily (where my DAW sessions reside) with a retention of 6 months. I usually go in and manually run a purge every one or two months to save space. Windows also has system imaging in Windows Backup, but it's incredibly slow and I had one failure early on that could not be restored from the WB image. Instead, I now use the free version of Macrium Reflect for cloning and imaging. Great app - in it's paid version it provides pretty much the same functionality as CCC on the Mac. The free version with Windows File History is pretty close.

[rlcartwright]

By the way, assuming that you do use a PC, is there a version of Time Machine in the PC world? Or do you use a PC version of Carbon Copy Cloner to do it manually?

Window has built in functionality akin to Time Machine called File History that is folder rather than disk oriented. You can set the folders/files to backup, plus the save interval (hourly, daily, etc.) and the retention time (month, year, forever). I have this set to backup to NAS most files in my Documents folder daily (where my DAW sessions reside) with a retention of 6 months. I usually go in and manually run a purge every one or two months to save space. Windows also has system imaging in Windows Backup, but it's incredibly slow and I had one failure early on that could not be restored from the WB image. Instead, I now use the free version of Macrium Reflect for cloning and imaging. Great app - in it's paid version it provides pretty much the same functionality as CCC on the Mac. The free version with Windows File History is pretty close.

-----------------------------

Thank you. I knew Windows must have something similar to Time Machine although not exact. This seems doable.

[James23x]

I recently purchased Lenovo Legion 5 Gaming Laptop after reading reviews on this site. I use MOTU M2 2x2 USB-C and it works pretty good with my laptop. The storage is good, and I even purchased an external SSD because my ableton project files are pretty huge in size.
if your daughter has a good budget, get a legion 5, no doubts.