Just lost a gig to a NY guy who charges $50 per minute…

[FMiguelez]

[This is about music production, and music business. I hope I made the right forum choice for this post]

How can a professional composer who lives in NY city charge 50 dollars per minute of original fully orchestral music for a movie (against video, not like library-style) and still survive?

But first, let me ask you, so I get some perspective (assume the following from my question) >
— You’re using a DAW like DP and a modern orchestral music VI like VSL and the like to compose original music for an indie movie that must stand against a temp soundtrack that includes Strauss’ Eine Alpensinfonie and Holst’s Saturn from his masterpiece with the LSO, right out of your metal boxes).

Please tell me, how long does it take to conceive/conceptualize, compose, orchestrate, produce, mix and master an original 2-minute piece with those characteristics with quite a complicated montaje of scenes and mood changes?
Please tell me so in HOURS of work.
Please assume 2 scenarios> one where there’s no real deadline (say, 2 weeks), so you can do your best work and even experiment and stuff, and then one where there IS a deadline (say, 4 full days from now, just for comparison).

How many hours would that take you?
Perhaps it takes me too long and my competition can crank such a thing in a just a couple of hours work? Is it me?



So this sketchy director pulled a snow job on me. Basically, we agreed on x, y and z terms in a phone call. 5 months into the production, and after hundreds of hours of work, he mentioned something “funny” about the music fees. When I asked him and reminded him of our agreement, he told me “he didn’t remember agreeing to that”, and now he wants to pay me a small fraction of my fee, and if I don’t agree he will substitute me with someone who will accept his laughable and insulting terms of 50 dollars per minute of orchestral music.
And now here comes this guy crawling out of NY, who apparently was 2nd in his list of preference, and accepts this sort of bullsh•• and undercuts me like that.
I don’t know whether he’d be able to pull the job or not (I doubt it, based on his demos), but I’m shocked someone from NY, with the exchange rate, would accept to work for that amount, even if he does a poor job!

It’s all fully orchestral music. The movie has all these drone shots and the director wanted a big sound (Strauss’ Eine Alpen Symphonie was in the temp tracks)


So I literally told this mal-parido de mierda to put his movie where the sun don’t shine and freak off with his cheap composers.
I wasted 5 months and hundreds of hours of work. Everything was written against video, so if I want to sell that music elsewhere I must make lots of changes and adjustments and additions. Totally doable, and I would have composed an equal amount of music anyway for selling them to reputable libraries or pitch them to TV networks (and yet, it still feels totally underwhelming as consolation).

Before you roast me for not having signed a contract first (ok, do feel free to roast me about this… MLC?) , please keep in mind that here in Mexico we can be very informal when trust has been built, and I’m used to signing contracts with ad agencies and production houses 6-12 months after they air my music in a jingle or TV show! I could count with one hand exceptions where nothing was done until a contract was signed in 20 years in the industry (with the notable exception of TV networks… they ARE very formal, especially since they get 50% of my royalties!).

So my mistake was trusting a “nobody” director who played me like a violin.




This whole thing left me wondering with a very bad taste of mouth. I REALLY COULD USE SOME PERSPECTIVE>
Is this the new reality? I ask because, after computing hours-of-work VS payment, results show that dancing in a good street corner for coins seems to pay better than being a composer specialized on orchestral music for film and TV…

How much money is that orchestral library and the DP10 update, again? Oh, and I need a new computer...

[/stumped]

[FMiguelez]

Sorry for asking the question and not posting my own numbers!

They are>
Scenario without deadline> 55-65 hours of work (my best work)
Scenario with deadline> 40-45 hours of work (my best work too, but I always end up making changes after I turn it in for mere self-satisfaction perfectionism, so it ends up being 55-60 hours too ).

Honestly. Be brutal. Is THAT the problem? Should it take me a lot less time than that so computing the numbers is not so bad? Must I defeat my horrible tendency towards perfectionism and learn to turn in "ok" stuff instead?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

There’s a lot to unpack there, FM, but as I see it there’s one key element. The sketchy director. Rule #1: don’t work with morons. Easier said than done, but if I don’t know the client I ask for a non refundable deposit of half in advance. No conceptual discussions of any depth, or specific ideas revealed from the composer. If they don’t want to agree, move on.

And once you do that, you’re also setting the bar for any future collaboration with them. Half in advance, non- refundable.

As for the “NY” composer, it doesn’t matter where the #%*^ (insert fornication adjective here) they live. So he’s from NY. Big effing deal. That doesn’t necessarily make him competent. So let’s ignore that aspect. It’s irrelevant.

Directors and producers who care about the product and understand the work will pay what they have to to get a great movie out. Many just want cheap and have such bad taste that buying out (and I assure you that guy is doing a buyout because his music obviously ain’t worth ••••) is their dream. Buyouts start at 6 figures not including decimals and even then you’re only selling off publisher rights and only partial rights at that. Either broadcast or non broadcast distribution. So the composer is still getting about 75% of total royalties.

That is how it works. Just walk away from idiots. Never appear desperate. Never get angry over such situations as it serves no useful purpose, unless it motivates you to be better or you can learn to be a more savvy business person as a result. At least, that’s my philosophy and I’m sticking to it.

Coincidentally, where the filmmaker located? How’d they find you?

[mikehalloran]

Pretty much what Michael said.

Since my stroke, I don't get very much of that work. I'm the first to admit that writing to a deadline is not really possible anymore.


That said, it was always 50% upfront for me. Also specified that I get more if for substantial changes. I learned that one from the Writers Guild.

[darrell]

Pinche putamadre.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Pinche putamadre.

I love the Romance languages.

[darrell]

Yes, they just roll off the tongue.

[Phil O]

Before you roast me for not having signed a contract first (ok, do feel free to roast me about this… MLC?) , please keep in mind that here in Mexico we can be very informal when trust has been built, and I’m used to signing contracts with ad agencies and production houses 6-12 months after they air my music in a jingle or TV show!

Don't feel bad, FM. I've been there. A few years back a good friend asked me to collaborate on a project for his nephew. His nephew is a famous pop performer (who's name I won't mention) that has enough money to pay top dollar for a project like this, but we gave him a fair price. He agreed and we proceeded with the project without a contract. I know, I know but it was his effin nephew, ok? Well...he stiffed us.

I feel your pain brother.

Your friendly neighborhood Phil

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Stiffed? That’s happened to me two or three times and every time I brought them to court and won. In some circles bringing a lawsuit is a mark against you. Well punta whatever that guy said earlier. If I give someone a few hours of my LIFE w/o compensation I’ll damned if they’re gonna walk. And if the courts didn’t work they might never walk again.

OTOH, one of my biggest name clients (oh, you’ve heard of them) has yet to sign anything but my checks and thank you letters for my work. Trust and respect. Sometimes it’s hard to know who to trust. Part of being a good independent business person is honing that skill.

As far as bad business being part of the locale one lives in, might I suggest a change of locale? Or you can just let the Wookie win again. It’s a tough world. You gotta protect your turf.

[Phil O]

Stiffed? That’s happened to me two or three times and every time I brought them to court and won.

Yeah, I hear ya, Michael. But, like I said it was the guys nephew. My friend offered to pay me my share, but he's too good a friend. I just couldn't take him up on his offer, and if we did take this stronzo to court my friend would be in the dog house with his wife.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Yeah. I once did a fav for a comedy pal and his employer plagiarized a theme. I let it go as it was an unsigned project for a dip •••• going nowhere company. If you’re gonna follow that path only go for the deep pockets. Lol

[Gravity Jim]

Anybody who charges $50 per finished minute of score will be out of business soon.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Anybody who charges $50 per finished minute of score will be out of business soon.

Oh, I don't know. I see a lot of cheap ass "producers" who are unable to HEAR music and who would buy that crap. What do the music libraries charge? I just finished video (and audio) editing for an online project that used a library subscription. Pretty good music for kids dance classes. I was surprised. But I know she didn't pay all that much for access and certainly not $50 per minute.

Of course, how they make their money is bulk. License a lot of music and don't pay the composers all that much if they can get away with it. I doubt any true "journeyman" composer would even think about their music in terms of $$/minute, no more than any painter would bid a commission based solely on sq. footage (unless we're talking murals, or in the case of music, large symphonic works for real orchestras). One can calculate production costs in terms of printing, binding, shipping. But the artistic fee is another matter entirely. That needs to be balanced against a few aspects. Is this potentially a high frequency repeat client? Will a lower bid yield a lot more volume of work? Also, what is the earning potential of the music post project? Will it provide valuable exposure and potentially access to a higher level of referral clients?

One final thought. Another reason not to consider a $$/minute model is that it does not take into consideration the true time it takes to produce a minute of high quality music (from both a production and an artistic perspective). If you take an entire day to produce that minute, then you have to consider "what is my day rate?" IOW, how much money do you need to devote an entire day of your time to the project? I doubt our $50/min 'composer' has ever thought in those terms. As a working composer, it's absolutely critical to be able to set your day rate, or perhaps a half or 3/4 day rate, and stick to it. Use the musician's union rates as the minimum if that is helpful, but for a content creator (as opposed to a regurgitant musician) and copyright owner, union rates are on the low side.

The obvious dilemma is finding clients willing to pay your day rate, especially if you set it high. There's a simple answer to that. Do the very best you can and find a unique niche that no one can copy. Your "voice" if you will (even if you won't).

$50/minute? I'll charge that just to talk to you about NOT using my music. lol And, to the o/p FM: if the client is that lame, you're better off without them. They'll rip you off eventually or, at least, cost you headaches in the future, related to payment and content. I say: good riddance!

[stubbsonic]

And, to the o/p FM: if the client is that lame, you're better off without them. They'll rip you off eventually or, at least, cost you headaches in the future, related to payment and content. I say: good riddance!

Agreed. It's just a shame that they already extracted so much of your time and effort before you were rid of them.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

And, to the o/p FM: if the client is that lame, you're better off without them. They'll rip you off eventually or, at least, cost you headaches in the future, related to payment and content. I say: good riddance!

Agreed. It's just a shame that they already extracted so much of your time and effort before you were rid of them.

All I can say to that is: I've kissed a lot frogs to learn that lesson. At some point it also stops being about the money or even getting the gig. The more one works and displays excellence, the more gigs and money will come your way. Put another way: the harder you work, the luckier you get. But I digress...

It starts to become more important that the project is worthy or YOUR time, not the other way around. People don't go to Giacchino, Elfman, Williams, Zimmer, et al, and ask them to bend their artistry to fit the project. They go to them because their artistry already fits and adds to the project. Their musical voice and imagination is what the director and producers want. And apparently, what the audience also wants. So often the lame ass directors and producers fail to START at the viewer level. Not their taste, but the viewers taste. I worked with a woman a few years ago who hated me to write a theater score for her one-person vanity production. Once i was hired, the first thing she said was "NO PIANO! I just don't like piano." I've also had a dancer do the same thing once. My response was: 'I am not writing music that YOU like. I'm writing music that fits the project the way I see it. I know YOU don't like piano, but it has different meanings to different people and by eliminating it, you are denying those audience members of a sound that is relevant to THEIR lives. We're telling your story, we are not RE-LIVING you life.'

I walked from the project for myriad other reasons. I got half my fee in advance, non-refundable. The director was a friend and asked is I could, at least, give him the SFX and some dialogue editing I had already done (but NO MUSIC). I agreed. No big deal. But a valuable lesson:stand up for your integrity. DO NOT beg for a gig, and don't be afraid to say NO!

I have NEVER "applied for a job" as a composer. I don't solicit work. Work solicits me. I'm not saying that as a braggart. Quite the opposite. From a "business" standpoint it's a terrible model. No advertising except a website that hasn't been updated in over 5 years. lol OTOH, I also set myself up as a "boutique" composer, working largely in theater, dance, various live shows (magic, comedy, staged readings, etc) and silent film (mostly because dead directors area so much easier to deal with... lol). ALL my work is by word of mouth and that word HAS TO be good or I don't get the next recommendation. It's also important to be a nice person. People tend to like working with nice people and not ego maniacs or power trippers.

So do good work. Be a nice person. And wear an effing mask!