Catalina

[James Steele]

I'm running a 12-core 5,1 MacPro (it was upgraded from an 8-core 4,1) and it's fine for my use right now. I could probably get along fine with it for a while longer. I have multiple problems I have to deal with and as always it comes down to $$. I'm running a PCI-based system with an HD-192 and 24 I/O and I'd need to upgrade interfaces (which I admit is something I should do) so I have to stick with something with slots for a while longer. And while the new MacPro is ridiculously powerful by all accounts, it's also something that I can't afford without taking on more debt. So I'll hang back. As for Windows 10, I have to run a particular app on a laptop with that on it. I haven't tried to run any serious audio software on it. However, maybe it's viable down the line in terms of just bang for the buck?

Speaking of Melda... as I was writing this post I received an email from them. Looks like they must have caught some flack and they're sending out a mass mea culpa!

[James Steele]

Okay... they're hardly contrite, but looks like they took some heat. I didn't know the backstory that these guys have some sort of issue with Macs. On the other hand, I don't want to become so in love with a particular hardware platform that I ignore other options should they become viable and make more sense.

[bayswater]

Reading the daily CNet reports on all the issues that users are having with Win10 and the auto-updates ... This has been going on over three years! Yea, I really want to switch to that.

A lot of companies decide they don't have to be good, just not as bad as their main competitors.

[wvandyck]

Some thoughts and observations
- The cost of a PC that matches or exceeds Mac specs will have a similar price tag. Look at prices from ADK and others that build custom PC for music production.
- With knowledge and planning, building your own PC probably will cost less. But what if something goes wrong? And what about the cost of OS, apps, virus protection, etc.?

Twice in as many years, I've seriously considered making the switch. I'm comfortable using Windows, but with limited privileges at work, my under-the-hood knowledge is limited. Almost purchased one of several models as a Windows learning experience, but then used the funds for Mac music software. Point? My frustration at times with today's Apple provokes mutiny!

The 2018 Mac Mini is on a short list by end of this year.

[Michael Canavan]

Okay... they're hardly contrite, but looks like they took some heat. I didn't know the backstory that these guys have some sort of issue with Macs. On the other hand, I don't want to become so in love with a particular hardware platform that I ignore other options should they become viable and make more sense.

For sure, IMO I've always thought the best solution hardware wise would be a high end MacBook Pro as a front end for a dedicated build your own PC running VEP or just MMC, MTC etc. Off load all the heavy duty plug ins like sample libraries etc. into the PC and use the laptop for the more real time stuff.

I mean if you're running a big studio tracking big bands and orchestras then the new Mac Pro will make sense, but anyone else it's total overkill. We've been able to record 24 tracks of audio off of a moderate mac for quite some time.

The main reason I'm not switching anytime soon? Core Audio and MIDI, it's just better, there isn't any comparison. Here's a blurb from the MIDIQuest manual on Mac VS PC, remember this is from a guy who very obviously used Sonar up until it died.

Sound Quest is frequently asked, which is better - Windows or Macintosh? This is our take on the two systems and why.

If you are interested in incorporating MIDI hardware editors into your DAW (Pro Tools, Cubase, Sonar,
Performer, Logic) using VST, AAX, AU, or any another plug-in system, the clear winner is the Macintosh. Hands down. No question. Why? The MIDI management system developed by Apple called CoreMIDI is
far superior in handling MIDI data and allows all applications equal and unlimited access to all MIDI ports.
This functionality is built into the operating system and is an incredibly important feature if you wish to
use AU or VST plug-in editors. The reason, both the DAW and the editor will function at their best when
both have equal access to the MIDI interface. This is what the Macintosh does.

Windows on the other hand, leaves the MIDI capabilities to the MIDI interface manufacturers. As a result,
there are many, many MIDI interfaces that only allow one application to access the driver at a time. This
means that if the DAW has the MIDI interface open, a MIDI hardware editor can't open the MIDI port to
communicate with the interface. To further confuse matters, some MIDI interface drivers will allow
multiple applications to access the MIDI interface but they must be separate processes. While there is a
workaround for these issues, it requires specific planning and you are forced to spend more time
considering the setup and configuration of your system. While these limitations are not true of all MIDI
interfaces, it is true for many of them.

Windows does have one advantage over the Mac. There is slightly more control over the output of SysEx
data. If you have a specific group of very old instruments from Casio (CZ and VZ series), Ensoniq (ESQ-
1, ESQm) or a few others which are not able to receive SysEx transmissions at full speed, it is possible
to reduce the transmission rate for effective communications. This is not possible on the Macintosh.
Even with this advantage, remember that with a Macintosh you can still install a virtual version of
Windows (Parallels, Fusion, etc) on a Macintosh and use it to communicate with these problematic
instruments.

This comparison between Windows and Macintosh is taken solely from the perspective of MIDI support.
There are certainly other reasons to choose one system over the other.

[dewdman42]

I don't think Melda is going to stop doing mac stuff, he or she is just venting about a common complaint many mac developers have about Apple pulling the rug out from under them which they have been prone to do from time to time. Melda has a good point though about one thing, the next year or two could be a bit chaotic in the mac OSX world with the changes coming through. Its not just 64bit that is changing, but also Apple is eliminating KEXT's entirely, creating a read-only boot partition, requiring notarization of all apps that are to be run on OSX, and other security measures which may help to reduce the possibility of ransomeware, but are also going to cause headaches and problems for some people, and some software will probably not ever be updated to run on Catalina and newer...so this is definitely a fork in the road so to speak.....and it will be messy for the next year or two. These changes may or may not prove to be a big improvement in the long run, let's hope so, but they are rather major architectural changes to OSX and its going to at a minimum force all OSX developers to jump through hoops now, some more than others..and at worst...some older apps and especially hardware drivers have a limited life ahead...if not catalina, the next OS version is going to really enforce some of these rules even more strictly and that will be that.

[Prime Mover]

Sorry, but what Melda did is ridiculously unprofessional and just grinds my goat! I HATE it when one company comes out whining about how they can't deliver a good product because of the platform they write for. I understand, it's gotta be annoying and problematic. But it's what they signed up for. Programming is largely about navigating the gauntlet of various proprietary protocols. If you can't get it right immediately, then don't say anything, just let users know you're hacking it out, keep your head down, and do your job. Privately, go ahead and write tons of nasty-grams to Apple Dev.

I encountered this yesterday when I was about to drop $400 for an advanced piece of video stabilization software. I stopped at the last moment because they wrote a very petty message on their site blaming annual Adobe updates for breaking their software, and basically saying they weren't going to support new Adobe versions anymore. I don't care if they're right or not, but it's childish AF, and completely shoots themselves in the foot.

Users don't care about the complexities of what goes on behind the scenes between developers, but if they see one developer bitching about another... guess who ends up looking the fool? Yeah yeah yeah, Apple and Adobe are big evil megacorps... but I don't hear them shitting on you?!

Why I won't buy from EWQL... oh, except they also talk crap about their USERS!

[Michael Canavan]

Users don't care about the complexities of what goes on behind the scenes between developers, but if they see one developer bitching about another... guess who ends up looking the fool? Yeah yeah yeah, Apple and Adobe are big evil megacorps... but I don't hear them shitting on you?!!

This sums it up.
The truth of big evil megacorps is they have plenty of resources to write good code. I'm not saying they don't mess up, but the idea that Bob Jones and his small startup with ten variations on a delay plug in on offer, who started 30 years ago writing Windows code, who ported his plug in to OS X 5 years ago, that he's somehow in the know on what Apple should and should not do for upgrades, all the while comparing it to his more familiar Windows...
Most of the time that I hear rants from developers on this sort of thing, I think, thank you. Thank you for letting me know you're lazy, and uncomfortable writing code in the platform I use. Saves me money and troubleshooting time.

[Michael Canavan]

Just because this is such a great summation of this recent Skye is Falling frenzy everyone is in, Urs from U-He on the issue in terms of the future. We all should know better than to jump on Catalina, but it's the future for reasons mentioned here in this thread. https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7550644

To me there seem to be quite a lot of contradictory claims here.

Why would Apple invest in a notarisation platform for software which is distributed outside of their App Store, if their goal was to enforce selling through that App Store? They could have gotten that a lot easier by simply closing that system, or simply by abandoning package build, product build and codesign. And DMG with symlinks.

If 99$ a year sounds like a hell of a lot for a hobby developer, I wonder what hobby musicians think about plug-in prices.

If I was Apple and if I was keen on sanctioning software, the first person who I'd sanction would be the one who publicly posts an email that I had sent in private. My guess: Apple isn't keen on sanctioning software.

If I was a plug-in developer afraid of the whole notarisation process, I would not worry: Plug-in binaries do not need to be notarised. Applications, installers and DMGs do. So I'd distribute my plug-ins the olden way: In a zip, no installer needed - and no notarisation.

If I was a user of an operating system which has all my contacts, camera access, location services, a password manager, my credit card information and a photo library, and if I was living in a world where companies like Camebridge Analytica exist, where anything as stupid as a simple freeware game could harvest hundreds of millions of aforementioned data sources, where a well trained AI needs one photo from my home to suss out more about me than my friends know, I'd sleep a lot deeper if I knew that access entitlements for random software were somewhat managed for most of us.

Also, if it wasn't against forum guidelines I'd be happy to share a link to a certain warez site where certain Mac cracks for our products (and that of pretty much everyone else selling here) can be downloaded: Each with a great and convenient installer, which - conveniently for the guy who runs the site - also installs a crypto miner and possibly a full backdoor to the system, unbeknownst to the unsuspecting user of a platform which he thinks is free of malware. I really don't mind that to be over and done with.

[mikehalloran]

Well said.

[cuttime]

Just because this is such a great summation of this recent Skye is Falling frenzy everyone is in, Urs from U-He on the issue in terms of the future.

I'm not worried, I have my towel.

[cuttime]

So...did we answer the OP's question?

[HCMarkus]

Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me!

I think we hit the OP with adequate warnings right up front.

[Prime Mover]

Very eloquent and rational post from Urs. Zebra2 is high on my list of new synths, this will make me feel even better when I finally get around to purchasing it.

As for Melda... love their Rotary sim, but otherwise, I'm done with them. A pre-schooler could have developed a better UI, and their whole sales approach is SUPER sketchy and fly-by-night for a developer with no legacy. Gettin' a little too big for their britches, me thinks.

[dewdman42]

I've never been a super huge fan of Melda's work for some of the reasons you lay out. I have the VintageRotary, which is darn good, but IK's leslie now is better. But at the time I got it, it was great. I also recently required MCabinet which is something special and looking forward to using it. The vast majority of their stuff is basically nothing I can't get elsewhere, except as you point out, that bloody GUI that makes every plugin look like the last. its perfectly usable, but designed by an engineer rather than a UI guru, IMHO. I don't mind for when I use one or two of their special plugins...to put up with it.

The thing about Melda plugins is that they are so supremely flexible as to borderline on obsessively so. For some people that need some special side chain multi band trick or something...Melda's stuff will probably allow you to do special things...this is all good, but for me its really just a couple of them that standout as interesting and useful. MCabinet is the one I'm having fun with now.

I don't have a problem with him venting. He took a risk by venting his opinion, the internet is ablaze with people complaining about him. How does the saying go? Don't shoot the messenger. What the guy from Melda is saying is true, and its good to have it out there discussed IMHO. Is he whining about something that will not change? Yes for sure. he's not gaining any market share with Apple or apple fanboys either..but its still a valid criticism he was trying to make... I'm not giving up my mac anytime soon...but just saying...