How to route/pan/submix orchestral pieces.

[Gone To Lunch]

I am making an orchestral piece with VSL sounds in Digital Peformer 9.52 under OS 10.13.6

I have my VIs set up traditionally as winds, brass, percussion, strings sections etc using a VSL virtual ensemble (VE) for each, and send all sounds to one stereo reverb on an aux send.
My production intention is to try and fake a ‘real’ orchestral soundscape.

Thus far, I have mixed band tracks, guitar/keys, bass, drums, vox etc as mono sources into the stereo reverb and stereo mix bus, panned according to taste.

Now I am new to orchestral mixing so am seeking guidance from Wizards.

I would like to do the final mix+master in DP, and am now spoilt for choices of how to route my signals.

Specifically, what would be the best choices of my now numerous options ?

what are pros and cons of :

Making all instrument sections mono ?

Using the default stereo output configuration of the VEs ?

Doing all the panning in DP, with individual woodwind, horns, harp, piano etc as mono into the DP mix?

But then what about the strings - should I make keep them stereo as in the VE or use them as mono sources in the final stereo mix ?

I am keen to preserve all the mixing being done in my DP mixer; but if I keep strings stereo within VE, how should I best set their width and pan ?

There is only pan but no width in DP (except for in Trim) so I want to keep all the mix decision points on the same board.

So I guess I am asking what is the relationship between the stereo output from VE and the stereo aux in DP I would send it to ?

[mhschmieder]

The only definitive comment I have so far is to NOT go mono with VSL. I tried that and found that mono-summing doesn't work well with that library.

Instead, use PowerPan to control the stereo positioning and width. It's pretty easy to create a bunch of presets that mimic a particular orchestral setup.

I forget whether a baby version of PowerPan is now included within Vienna Instruments or Vienna Instruments Pro, as I own everything the company makes.

I personally group each orchestral section and subsection into aux buses, but only if I'm doing orchestral music vs. using orchestral instruments in jazz, pop, rock, etc., where that conflicts too much with how I mix other instruments.

There are so many ways to do this, including Vienna Ensemble or Vienna Ensemble Pro, but the latter is broken currently on Mojave (in DP at least) and won't load its interface.

Lots of tutorials from Beat Kaufmann as well as templates and the like.

If you use the Dimension products to build sections with players vs. using fully recorded sections, that might change how you do things as well. I am shifting towards that approach but have not yet adjusted my aux buss strategy accordingly.

[mikehalloran]

1. You won't make it sound like a properly recorded live orchestra but you can get it to sound good with a lot of work.

2. What Mark says about stereo vs mono.

3. Panning cannot bring depth to your sound stage. Panned stereo VIs are like panned mono in this regard. Reverb is the right tool to add that third dimension. Small amounts can move instruments back on the stage—your double-basses and percussion are generally the back line and should have more than your winds in the middle. 1st fiddles and 1st celli have the least as they are in front. The effect is subtle which is why it's the one part of a mix that I do with headphones—if you can hear a big difference through your mains, you overdid it. This application of reverb is different than your overall room/hall/space.

I've heard it postulated that a few milliseconds of delay adds depth but I've never liked the effect. From firsthand experience, I can tell you that the bassists are moving their bows in anticipation of the beat so that the conductor hears everything together.

[dix]

I don't have VSL, but all the libraries I own (CineSamples, EW Hollywood, EWQL, NI Symphony Series), are sampled in-situ. That is they are recorded in stereo from a center position with all the sections placed where they would in a traditional orchestra. So without any panning in a DAW the bass section samples, for example, are right heavy, violin samples left heavy etc, just as they would be in an orchestra.

Unless you're looking for an extra, artificially wide sound you shouldn't have to mess with panning at all. Doing so would sound less real (it would with all my libraries anyway). ....and yes, not mono. A big part of most libraries' sound, what helps them sound real, is the stereo or surround ambience. Companies go to great lengths to get that right.

Lotsa great tutorials out there. Several from Spitfire's Jake Jackson. Here's one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02qzmbO548k

[mhschmieder]

VSL is not pre-panned but I do have other libraries that are.

Vienna Instruments Pro includes MIRx reverb, which can be useful at mock-up stage for depth staging. Not sure if it's also in free Vienna Instruments.

I agree with what Mike says about pre-delay -- to me it always smears the timing and articulations between the instrument sections. But I suppose it could work well in Vienna's MIR, which takes a three-dimensional approach (height included) and is different from both algorithmic and convolution reverb. It's a bit more akin to what Wallander Instruments does.