dealing with latency during tracking...

sayatnova · Post by **sayatnova** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:21 pm

Hello Everyone,

I just got my upgraded apogee symphony IO mk 2 thunderbolt. I have a trash can mac. I am about to start recording my band and we will need 12 tracks...

I was unpleasantly surprised to see that I cannot run my session at a 32 buffer, considering the gear that I have, currently. Processor spikes in the red every few seconds... processor stays at 50% when I run at 64, but this is really noticeable to me. I was under the impression that my rig could run at 32 through DP. Again, this would be so easy if it worked. But, it does not.

So, now I am looking at using the symphony IO control software to run a no-latency mixer for my session. I spent 2 hrs trying to get a clear idea how to set this up via their live chat system. Not very helpful, and very frustrating. I wish they had a proper manual to go through complex routing set-ups, but they do not. They also cannot split stereo pair of outputs into a set of independent mono outs in the software, you have to add additional mixers and do this with hard panning. Not great for what I need to do (I am feeding a HearBack system for my band mates, so we can monitor live while tracking).

What I need to do is route the following in the ADDA:

input 1-2 > output 9-10
input 3-4 > output 11-12
input 5 > output 13 (involves hard panning and an additional mixer...)
Input 6-7 > output 14 (also involves hard panning and an additional mixer?...)
input 8 > output 15-16
Input 9-12 > output 15-16

There also seems to be a way to use a reverb plugin, as well, to help sweeten the sound up during tracking, using an FX send to match an aux in the DAW. But, no clear information on how to set that up, either.

Does anyone use the Symphony IO control software with DP to set up low-latency monitoring? Any chance you can share your insights on how to set-this up correctly?

I would greatly appreciate any invite and suggestions.

Thank you!

~Shea

mikehalloran · Post by **mikehalloran** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:33 pm

If your profile settings are accurate, run the latest version of El Capitan 10.11.6 or newer Mac OS and update DP to 9.13 or 9.51. This will let you run more efficiently at lower buffer settings. 9.02 won’t cut it for what you want.

I can’t help you on the Symphony issues.

HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:56 pm

Although I can't help with specific info about the Apogee, I can advise that using a hardware mixer like the one in my MOTU 828es (I assume the Apogee also has a hardware mixer built in) works great when tracking. I use an outboard Lexicon 'verb for tracking reverb but, since a little "pre delay" is fine with reverb, sending to a DP plugin reverb should work fine for monitoring, too.

Unless someone here or on another forum provides you with the answers you seek, you'll have to study the Apogee manual to sus out the routing conventions.

I think you will find DP works great at a buffer of 128; try it and see if the delay is tolerable for monitoring. I find 128 (and even 256 in DP9.51) very useable for me with VIs. It should be noted that the throughput delay for any given buffer size in DP was halved in DP9 compared to prior versions. So you will not necessarily be comparing apples to apples when comparing performance at a given buffer size between DP7 or 8 and DP9.

mikehalloran · Post by **mikehalloran** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:51 pm

It should be noted that the throughput delay for any given buffer size in DP was halved in DP9 compared to prior versions

Again, 9.13 and later in El Capitan and later.

I've never had a noticeable latency issue tracking at 256k although I preferred 128k and reduced the number of playback tracks if need be. This is through a MOTU Firewire 400 device. With DP 9.13, I am able to track at 32k if only a few instruments playing back. I'm quite comfortable at 64k now.

sayatnova · Post by **sayatnova** » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:15 am

Thank you all for the replies.

I will do as Mike says and update DP. Hopefully I can get 32 to run with my session size, after that.

As for the Symphony manual: they only lay out what each feature is, but do not go into how to set anything up or how to use it for monitoring, really. Hence the posting... They should take a page from what Mackie mixer manuals include: a few various routing hookups, and why you would set-up that way.

Hopefully, I will get some clear answers via email to help from them.

I just hope that when i do update DP, I can still use my themes from Andy. Mellow Gold is so very good...

zandurian · Post by **zandurian** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:24 pm

sayatnova wrote: I will do as Mike says and update DP. Hopefully I can get 32 to run with my session size, after that.

As for the Symphony manual: they only lay out what each feature is, but do not go into how to set anything up ...

Back when I had my Apogee 16 remembered they had their own version of cue mix and it’s pretty close to zero latency since it doesn’t go through all the processing of the DAW. To this day even though I have a 12 core firebreathing monster whenever I track bands I just use cue mix and add verb via a hardware reverb unit so my computer can just relax and record. Of course playing VI‘s you have to have that little buffer setting but there used to even be a workaround for that (can’t recall but it was someway to Hear the standalone VI while you were playing while recording only the MIDI into DP). Before the super fast computers it was always a problem because if you just want to play one VI live every effect inserted on every track is trying to react at TopSpeed

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HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:28 pm

zandurian wrote:Of course playing VI‘s you have to have that little buffer setting but there used to even be a workaround for that (can’t recall but it was someway to Hear the standalone VI while you were playing while recording only the MIDI into DP). Before the super fast computers it was always a problem because if you just want to play one VI live every effect inserted on every track is trying to react at TopSpeed

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Suggested revision:

Before DP9.5 it was always a problem because if you just want to play one VI live every effect inserted on every track is trying to react at TopSpeed.

Last night I was running a very large project with loads of tracks and plugins plus VI's at a buffer of 128. DP9.51 is delivering!

sayatnova · Post by **sayatnova** » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:16 pm

I finally had a nice session via phone with a very patient Apogee support person, Chis H.

I finally understand how to think their system, which now seems clear, but did not for a while. In the end I had to use a number of mixers set to various output pairs to get my desired set-up needs met. The 4 mixers are not run in series (which I had thought), but exist independent of each other.

And, I can use reverb either from my Hardware, or a plugin in the DAW, while tracking live with low latency!

Finally! Very happy.

Juts wanted to share in case others wonder if it is possible on their end using the Symphony Control software.

~Shea

zandurian · Post by **zandurian** » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:23 pm

sayatnova wrote: And, I can use reverb either from my Hardware, or a plugin in the DAW, while tracking live with low latency!

Finally! Very happy.

Juts wanted to share in case others wonder if it is possible on their end using the Symphony Control software.

~Shea

Excellent! They are a premier digital audio company and didn't get there by not having their s**t together...

zandurian · Post by **zandurian** » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:27 pm

HCMarkus wrote: Before DP9.5 it was always a problem

I just went from 8.5 to 9.51 but simultaneously doubled the speed of my computer so I didn't realize how much impact the new software had on the reduced latency!

HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:56 am

zandurian wrote:
HCMarkus wrote: Before DP9.5 it was always a problem
I just went from 8.5 to 9.51 but simultaneously doubled the speed of my computer so I didn't realize how much impact the new software had on the reduced latency!

You might discover that 1066 RAM is really 1333 if you do this:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204063

Unlike the old, your new CPUs support 1333, and a lot of RAM sold as 1066 is really 1333. Check the listed speed post-NVRAM reset and you may be pleasantly surprised!

zandurian · Post by **zandurian** » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:29 am

HCMarkus wrote:
zandurian wrote:
HCMarkus wrote: Before DP9.5 it was always a problem
I just went from 8.5 to 9.51 but simultaneously doubled the speed of my computer so I didn't realize how much impact the new software had on the reduced latency!
You might discover that 1066 RAM is really 1333 if you do this:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204063

Unlike the old, your new CPUs support 1333, and a lot of RAM sold as 1066 is really 1333. Check the listed speed post-NVRAM reset and you may be pleasantly surprised!

yes!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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