Spitfire Brass vs Berlin Brass

[Rusty Shackleford]

I've been seriously eyeing Spitfire Symphonic Brass and Berlin Brass. Love the individual players available in BB and but both libs sound great.

One thing that stands out to me is the horns’ clarity in BB.

For any users here that have SSB or both libs: Can SSB produce mockups with great clarity from the horns or do even the close mics from the samples recorded at Air Studios still have some distance (and smear) to them? Any other thoughts or comparisons between these libraries would be most appreciated. Thanks!

[mhschmieder]

I'll try to give these a spin this week -- for some reason, I've never used the Spitfire Brass, even though I use their ethnic winds and chromatic percussion constantly, and occasionally their woodwinds and strings (as well as other percussion).

I don't own Berlin but have been curious for some time. My understanding though, is that the line is going through some format changes at the moment and that certain products are temporarily unavailable as they repackage them?

In terms of Orchestral Horns themselves, I have been extremely happy with the realism and expression in Vienna Symphonic Library, even though the individual horns are not to my liking (primarily because they only include a Single and a Triple vs. the more common Double).

Sample Modeling's Horn & Tuba are quite good as well, and can at least be used to flesh out a section with more realism of phrasing and expression. Unlike some of their other libraries, the timbre itself is fine for classical and not just for jazz and rock.

[MikeInBoston]

Have you checked out Cinebrass by Cinesamples? These are my bread and butter brass samples, and I like them very much.

Mike

[Rusty Shackleford]

I'll try to give these a spin this week -- for some reason, I've never used the Spitfire Brass, even though I use their ethnic winds and chromatic percussion constantly, and occasionally their woodwinds and strings (as well as other percussion).

Thanks for your reply. Curious to hear what you think.

I don't own Berlin but have been curious for some time. My understanding though, is that the line is going through some format changes at the moment and that certain products are temporarily unavailable as they repackage them?

The Berlin Series is available to download from the OT site. They sound fantastic and interface looks excellent. Seems they are ideal for detailed final mockups with an optimized system (minimal 32GB RAM and SSD drives) considering its HUGE amount of available articulations and programming options but I wonder if leaner patches can be created with smaller and quicker CPU demand for everyday composing.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Have you checked out Cinebrass by Cinesamples? These are my bread and butter brass samples, and I like them very much.

I have and they sound excellent. I originally leaned towards Spitfire because I have their strings and woodwinds libs which I really like and thought their brass would blend easily with them. Besides also being interested in a little drier hall, Berlin Brass stood out to me with its individual solo instruments option for programming whole sections and the clarity of its sound. All those individual instruments - while being ideal for realistic final mockups - might be overkill for everyday writing when my priority is achieving good sounding, flexible patches quickly without a massive CPU footprint. BB might be able to function in this capacity, too; I just haven't had the chance to work with it up close. Thanks for your reply, Mike.

[mhschmieder]

I almost bought Cinesamples Descant Horn during their recent sale, as it's unique, but ultimately decided that Vienna's Triple Horn covers the same range, and also the documentation made it sound like you have to already own Cinesamples Brass in order for Descant Horn to work, so I didn't want to take the risk on not having the prerequisites.

[mhschmieder]

I just tried all of the Spitfire Brass tonight, and despise all of them except the Solo Horn, but even that one only works when pushing pretty close to the player with the mic mixer. All of these sound tinny to me, and lacking the warmth that draws me to brass in the first place.

I don't feel the same way about Spitfire's woodwinds and strings, even though in general I feel there is too much of the room baked into all of the mics (not true of their percussion and ethnic libraries, however).

Chris Hein's Orchestral Brass wins my vote, over core Vienna Symphonic Library, for their bold and warm German brass sound that I love so much (I don't care for the Viennese brass sound overall).

This is a remarkably flexible library, and it also contains three separate and quite distinct solo Horn players. These are of course all Double Horns, which VSL misses altogether.

Chris separately recorded the resonance of the instruments themselves, and this can be dialed to taste just as can be the specially created reverb spaces (not the stock ones from Kontakt; just as with his excellent jazz band library).

As the piece in question is heavily influenced by Sibelius, I am going to re-track the Solo Horn, Horn Ensemble, and Trombone Ensemble with Chris Hein Orchestral Brass tonight. From previous listens, I think the Berlin library is similar, but a bit darker by default.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I just tried all of the Spitfire Brass tonight, and despise all of them except the Solo Horn, but even that one only works when pushing pretty close to the player with the mic mixer. All of these sound tinny to me, and lacking the warmth that draws me to brass in the first place.

I don't feel the same way about Spitfire's woodwinds and strings, even though in general I feel there is too much of the room baked into all of the mics (not true of their percussion and ethnic libraries, however).

Chris Hein's Orchestral Brass wins my vote, over core Vienna Symphonic Library, for their bold and warm German brass sound that I love so much (I don't care for the Viennese brass sound overall).

This is a remarkably flexible library, and it also contains three separate and quite distinct solo Horn players. These are of course all Double Horns, which VSL misses altogether.

Chris separately recorded the resonance of the instruments themselves, and this can be dialed to taste just as can be the specially created reverb spaces (not the stock ones from Kontakt; just as with his excellent jazz band library).

As the piece in question is heavily influenced by Sibelius, I am going to re-track the Solo Horn, Horn Ensemble, and Trombone Ensemble with Chris Hein Orchestral Brass tonight. From previous listens, I think the Berlin library is similar, but a bit darker by default.

Interesting. The quality of the various horns in SSB sound big and fat to me, in general; the main issue that I’m looking at is the ability to get strong clarity / presence from the various instruments with the way they were recorded in Air Studios - even with the close mics mixed in front.

Can you post the piece you’re working on with both your SSB and Chris Hein versions? I’d be curious to hear how you are comparing them. Thanks.

[mhschmieder]

That's what I mean by thin; lacking body, presence, and clarity.

I've already deleted the Spitfire and VSL tracks at this point -- I just finished my session for the night a few minutes ago.

What's telling for me is that Chris Hein's library sounds great with reverb and body turned off, but as he did such a good job of recording his resonance impulses, I decided a few months ago to start dialing those in rather than use other reverbs downstream. Not normally my policy.

Given that the Spitfire Solo Horn can be made to have more clarity and presence when going close on the mic mix, it's a shame that they didn't record more individual players like Chris Hein and like VSL's Dimension Brass. I suspect the ensembles are fairly baked in due to mic distances for the grouped players vs. the soloed players. Not a fan of the Air Studios sound for the symphony.

[mhschmieder]

I did some more re-tracking last night, but it was just to switch from ensemble patches with polyphony, to individual tracks and players with no polyphony.

Specifically, I replaced horn ensembles with VSL Dimension Brass, which has four individual horn players, and gave each one its share of the sequence of triads.

Chris Hein takes a similar approach with his jazz library, and to a lesser degree with his classical library, but he doesn't offer ensembles for most of the woodwinds. Granted, it's less common now to write for winds that way, and I rarely do so myself either, preferring to split between a wider variety of voicings etc. (e.g. heckelphone, basset horn, oboe d'amore, etc.).

I haven't checked how Berlin Brass arranges their library, but Spitfire doesn't really offer the individual players and this is a big weakness in my view.

[mhschmieder]

I just checked, and Berlin Brass does support section building:

http://www.orchestraltools.com/librarie ... _brass.php

Quite expensive at $800, but I think they have piecemeal plans like VSL.

[mhschmieder]

The Berlin Woodwinds didn't wow me in the demos, and the strings seemed pretty good but not necessarily better than VSL, but the Brass demos are indeed impressive and the "extras" in particular (Contrasbass Trombone, Euphonium, etc.), so I may investigate whether they are available on their own or require the previous purchase of the main Brass Library.

Making more use of Dimension Brass in VSL is helping a lot, and Synchron Brass is surely not far away. I do like the recording stage that Berlin uses -- it's one that I frequently use in Altiverb or Vienna MIR etc. at production time.

The Cinesamples Brass sounds too Hollywood-ish for my tastes. I despise "epic", which puts me against the current grain for sure (vi-control and GS are full of people wanting to know how to make things sound MORE epic!). I like intimate, lots of dynamics and expression. The Descant Horn does sound nice but apparently requires first purchasing the full Cinesamples Brass.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The Berlin ... Brass demos are indeed impressive

I agree. The demos are perhaps the best I've heard. My main reservation with BB is that it may be overkill for everyday writing when I will need a leaner template to get ideas up and running quickly. I have also been reading that the CAPSULE interface is a CPU hog and that without at least 64GB RAM (128 for it to run ideally among other open libs) it will be very sluggish when running the full horn section. When many instruments and articulations are needed to craft a detailed (and very time consuming) mockup or something that would appear on a master recording, BB sounds amazing. It's a beast. I have heard, though, that BB is lacking simpler palette / template options for having fundamental articulations available for composing sessions where staying in the creative flow without getting bogged down in details is key.

I think the Spitfire Symphonic Brass sounds superb, and it might fit that sweet spot of having the ability to create composing templates with just essential articulations while also having the depth and ability to program super detailed, realistic sounding mockups. A concern I've had with the Air Studios sound of SSB was having the ability to program instrument parts with more clarity than heard in the demos. I recently was told, however, that the demos on the Spitfire site do not utilize much or any of the close mics; they use mainly tree mics and outriggers. I've talked to other SSB users who have had good luck getting clarity and warmth with a mic mix favoring more of the close mics.

The other reservation I have with SSB is one that you also point out, mhschmieder - the lack of multiple instruments available for the same horn to build sections. However, I think a potential workaround for this could be opening multiple instances of the same horn sample (say, 4 french horns) for programming the individual parts in. Obviously, you don't get the benefit of subtle differences from having different performers sampled, but by dynamically playing in each of the different parts using the same sample (not copy-and-pasting) and with careful mixing, I bet mockups could be realized that are equally convincing (or with negligible differences) to those with multiple player samples of the same instrument. Have you - or anyone else - ever created chorale type parts using this type of workaround (multiple instances of the same solo instrument)? Curious to hear your experiences.

The other libs you mentioned are excellent, too; BB and SSB are just at the top of my list for the type of writing and producing I currently am doing.

I like intimate, lots of dynamics and expression.

Me, too. I'd like to have the option to go bigger and bolder at times, as well.

[mhschmieder]

Just to be clear, the differences between individual players in section-building oriented libraries is usually not even remotely subtle.

I was quite surprised even with VSL Dimension Brass, how different the players are, but the differences are quite extreme when you go to Chris Hein's libraries.

This matches the reality of modern orchestras, where players often use different brands from each other; whereas 50 years ago, most orchestras around the world had distinct "house sounds" that were rigorously enforced by limiting the players' choice of instruments/brands.

[towerproductions]

I like the Spitfire Brass . I also have the Spitfire WWds and symphonic and Chamber strings and It does blend well with those from the same hall. And yes using more of the close mics and eq helps for clarity . I also got a bunch of their other libs bernard herman hans perc. etc. and have really gotten to like those as well . (I went a little crazy over Black Friday and some other sales)