Problems setting up headphone mixs

[zaney]

Hi, first time.
I'm a new user to Mac G5 Dualcore 2Ghz, DP4.6 and Motu 828MII, Big Knob, MCU. I'm trying to set up headphone mixs for the tracking room and have run into several problems. The main outs of the 828 are routed to the DAW input on the Knob and then to monitor speakers. Analog outputs 7/8 on the 828 are routed to the DAW phones input on the Knob and out via phones amp to the tracking room. Audio is present where it is supposed to be but:
1. With any setting of output in a DP track or Aux to the appropriate bus in Cuemix the output fader has no effect on the level of audio sent to the inputs of the Knob. Shouldn't they attenuate?
2. This is probably a DP question but I'll ask it here as well. I would like to set up an independant headphone mix that accesses the input of a record enabled track, pre-fader. The output of a given track routes where it is directed, I was hoping to bus a send pre-fader from the same track to an Aux that is then routed to the phones mix, similar to an external mixer.
Can't get that to work. BTW the MCU ( which is set up for use with Cuemix) output faders for the bus's have no effect as well.
Hop this isn't too long a plea....I've tried to man-up and use all the texts but it's not happening for me.
I'm trying to move over from PC/Sonar/RME card and the curve is INTENSE!!!!!!

[qo]

2. This is probably a DP question but I'll ask it here as well. I would like to set up an independant headphone mix that accesses the input of a record enabled track, pre-fader. The output of a given track routes where it is directed, I was hoping to bus a send pre-fader from the same track to an Aux that is then routed to the phones mix, similar to an external mixer.

This should work, and is the way I've always done this sort of thing prior to getting an external mixer. Input of the Aux Track is the bus, output of the Aux Track is whatever outputs you have the phones connected to. The Aux then acts as the master volume for that Cue Mix. You may want to review the manual, page 206, "Setting the input monitoring mode," and 207 "Monitoring record-enabled tracks."

[giles117]

Remember CueMix routing works independantly of DP routing, you cannot control the level of a DP output via Cue Mix and vice versa


When I do headphone mixes with live input I route that input via Cuemix. I use dp to route recorded track information to the various mixes....

This works best....

AGain remember cuemix and dp work independantly of each other.

[zaney]

Thanks for the quick advice. It is a little frustrating because the mix capabilities of the RME card are quite versatile but I can't use it with my Dualcore. Adapt and innovate I guess.

[qo]

Thanks for the quick advice. It is a little frustrating because the mix capabilities of the RME card are quite versatile but I can't use it with my Dualcore. Adapt and innovate I guess.

Hmm, zaney, you mention an RME in your second post, but an 828 in your first post? Are you trying to use both for your cue mixes, or just the 828? In general, folks using DP have three choices:

1. Use MOTU's "CueMix" (or RME's equivalent, assuming there is one)
2. Configure DP to do this (with the inherent latency that arises)
3. Use an external mixer

Up until a month or so ago, I used option 2. I'm now using option 3. I never liked option 1 as it entailed switching back and forth between CueMix and DP and didn't (easily) allow for insertion of effects.

[giles117]

Thanks for the quick advice. It is a little frustrating because the mix capabilities of the RME card are quite versatile but I can't use it with my Dualcore. Adapt and innovate I guess.

Hmm, zaney, you mention an RME in your second post, but an 828 in your first post? Are you trying to use both for your cue mixes, or just the 828? In general, folks using DP have three choices:

1. Use MOTU's "CueMix" (or RME's equivalent, assuming there is one)
2. Configure DP to do this (with the inherent latency that arises)
3. Use an external mixer

Up until a month or so ago, I used option 2. I'm now using option 3. I never liked option 1 as it entailed switching back and forth between CueMix and DP and didn't (easily) allow for insertion of effects.

Sorry Qo I have been using a MOTU DSP based solution for 3 years and I have not had to use an external mixer.

They way I set my rig is this....

4 sep headphone mixes that are dual controlled. Live input routed cia CueMix (like drums /keys/bass/gtr) and Recorded input routed via DP with aux sends.....

Works like a charm with ZERO noticable (maybe 3 samples max)latency. I even route Outboard verbs so they hear FX while tracking (of course not recorded) via CueMix.

Hate to disagree with your solutions. seems you didnt set up your DSP powered rig correctly. I have been mixerless since 2002. THANKS MOTU!!!!!!

Also, Sad to say RME's Total Mix blows CueMix away as far as routing, but not as far as the GUI....

Hopefully Cuemix will allow as flexible routing as totalmix in the near future....

[qo]

Hate to disagree with your solutions. seems you didnt set up your DSP powered rig correctly. I have been mixerless since 2002. THANKS MOTU!!!!!!

Giles,

I use Apogee AD-16X/DA-16X at 88.2, so there is no CueMix (Apogee's FireMix only supports my hardware in Advanced Routing Mode which is limited to 48kHz). Prior to that, I used an 896HD and I did use CueMix, and it worked (I never said it didn't) but some clients prefer monitoring with effects. I'm not sure what solution you're disagreeing with since I didn't offer a single solution. Are you disagreeing with ALL of them (it seems you are using option 1 from the list I provided, right?). I didn't say one is better than any of the others. People can go with whatever works for them. An external mixer works for me since I need zero latency monitoring and this is the only way to do it with my hardware.

[giles117]

#2 and #3 for a guy with Motu Producst....

It wasnt clearly spelled out in your response that you used an external mixer with non Motu producst. I apologize for the confusion on bmy behalf....

I do however disagree with the Use motu /latency comment. unless it was specifically geared towards monitoring input through a software effect plugin.

I use outboard versb for that....SO once again it may be confusion on my behalf...

[qo]

I do however disagree with the Use motu /latency comment. unless it was specifically geared towards monitoring input through a software effect plugin.

Just to clarify, I didn't say use MOTU / latency. I said:

2. Configure DP to do this (with the inherent latency that arises).

That is, using DP, without CueMix (i.e. monitoring thru effects), results in latency equal to the buffer size you've configured (in and out of DP) plus whatever latency is involved with FX plugins. You can either use DP with CueMix and with external effects (or with no effects, i.e. option #1), or use DP without CueMix using its internal effects (or even with external effects if you want, i.e. option #2). Option #2 has inherently more latency than option #1, right?. Do you know another way to monitor while using DP without an external mixer?

Using external effects with #1 means you have to drop the external effect inline after one of CueMix's monitor mixes so everything (in that mix) is effected based on the wet/dry config of the external FX device (which you have to tweak within that device's unique menu system). I'm not aware of CueMix inserts, but perhaps that's been added? That's what I meant by:

I never liked option 1 as it entailed switching back and forth between CueMix and DP and didn't (easily) allow for insertion of effects.

The "easily" part was meant as an adjective to describe e.g. having to tweak the external FX's wet/dry mix (since the whole cue signal is going through the device). Vs an external mixer where you just grab an aux knob and turn it.

Anyway, there's no one right way, right? I just tried (probably badly) to describe the three ways I know to do this.

[giles117]

Just to clarify, I didn't say use MOTU / latency. I said:

Not to be a buthole, but this is what you typed...

2. Configure DP to do this (with the inherent latency that arises)

DP is a MOTU product. I look at motu as all things motu.

But then again I have been known to nit pick.

But using DP with a DSP based Motu solution is just like using cuemix where latency is concerned. I know cuz I have been 424 based since they dropped the 2408mk3 back in 02 and use DP with the headphone icon lit which gives me NO LATENCY monitoring of any record enabled or aux input through my system... We call it Direct Hardware Playthrough......

Only when monitoring through FX do you get latency but I think we both have said that so it is a moot point at this stage.....

Because I grew up on an analogue console. I use Cuemix, DP and route inputs no differnetly than if I was in front of a console. We call it send return....Sames as wehn I was living in a Pro Tools TDM system with no mixer.

Using external effects with #1 means you have to drop the external effect inline after one of CueMix's monitor mixes so everything (in that mix) is effected based on the wet/dry config of the external FX device (which you have to tweak within that device's unique menu system). I'm not aware of CueMix inserts, but perhaps that's been added?

That is incorrect. It has to do with your routing.... As with any Analogue console you have an aux send. Well with cue mix you assign a set of outs to be your aux outputs. Then send the audio you want effected throught that output....with a pair of inputs as a return..... You might see it as mixes, but I have 48 outputs so I just think of it as an output I use as an aux send pair.....You only send to that output what you want effected. Cue mix and Total Mix allow for that. where Total mix excels is in the area of a mono send instead of a stereo send that has to be panned to become mono.

So in the case of his 828 if he only needs a couple discreet headphone mixes he has 4 output pairs availabel for fx sends, etc....BTW I had an 828mkII as well for a second but liked my 2408 better...then I realized I should have kept both for cuemix bounceback features. Oh well. LOL

The "easily" part was meant as an adjective to describe e.g. having to tweak the external FX's wet/dry mix (since the whole cue signal is going through the device). Vs an external mixer where you just grab an aux knob and turn it.

I have an MCU and 3 EXT's and I "easily" jump into cuemix, and select the input I want routed to my FX send pairs and easily grab the fader to pull the level of that input-aux send fader (which I will term as an aux knob from that input channel routed to that FX aux out). It's all how you route, assign and cable.

On a Mixing board it is set, in the digital world you define your own routing.....

With an 828 and say a behringer ada8000 he has just given himself an additional 8 analog outputs he can assign how he sees fit.....with even more flexibility.....

It's all about routing.......

[qo]

Giles, you are right. I am wrong. I'll try to limp along with the tools I've got.

Much respect,

qo

[giles117]

The BIBLE IN action. This isnt an issue of right and wrong but making available to the poster all possible scenarios and solutions.

And if you feel that having apogees is limping (I did catch your sarcasm) then limp on. Just ordered a Lavry, should help me stop limping. LOL.

God Speed.

[qo]

The BIBLE IN action. This isnt an issue of right and wrong but making available to the poster all possible scenarios and solutions.

You're right. I was wrong to have mentioned right or wrong.