A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
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- terrybritton
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
It is funny how the headphone mixing thing can vary with people - and with headphones!
I love mixing using my Ultrasone Proline 750's which have been very durable and, in fact, I just broke out the spare ear pads it came with a couple months ago after more than 8 years of use!
I have a friend who absolutely hates them - to him they were just too different. Different strokes for different folks. (Of course, he is a multi-grammy winner, so I had to just agree to disagree!) But he does mix with his other headphones sometimes.
I also use IEMs quite a lot nowadays, but that could be dicey, they have so many sound signatures. I am very used to the ones I have (Shure SE846, a 4-driver machine with a dedicated sub-driver). Yes, TOTL, and worth every penny, as I am not lucky enough to always have a quiet environment. (And I got sick of pressing the headphones against my skull with dubious results!)
My point to the OP is that once you get used to the sound of your monitors and/or headphones and know what to expect of a great mix out of those, you are well on your way.
Terry
I love mixing using my Ultrasone Proline 750's which have been very durable and, in fact, I just broke out the spare ear pads it came with a couple months ago after more than 8 years of use!
I have a friend who absolutely hates them - to him they were just too different. Different strokes for different folks. (Of course, he is a multi-grammy winner, so I had to just agree to disagree!) But he does mix with his other headphones sometimes.
I also use IEMs quite a lot nowadays, but that could be dicey, they have so many sound signatures. I am very used to the ones I have (Shure SE846, a 4-driver machine with a dedicated sub-driver). Yes, TOTL, and worth every penny, as I am not lucky enough to always have a quiet environment. (And I got sick of pressing the headphones against my skull with dubious results!)
My point to the OP is that once you get used to the sound of your monitors and/or headphones and know what to expect of a great mix out of those, you are well on your way.
Terry
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- HCMarkus
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
I think it is critical to reference mixes on multiple transducers, including headphones. The sub on/off footswitch is a Godsend as well. And the laptop listener added a whole new dimension to the game.
- terrybritton
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
The "laptop listener" seems such a strange sort of beast to me... how...?HCMarkus wrote:And the laptop listener added a whole new dimension to the game.
You are right - as many listening mediums as is practical, especially nowadays!
Terry
Computer: Sweetwater CS400v7 Intel Core i7-10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz | 64Gigs RAM | Windows 11 Pro x64 |
MOTU 828 mk3 hybrid
DAWs & Live: MOTU Digital Performer 11.31 | Cantabile Performer 4
Keyboard Synths: Kawai K5000s, Korg Wavestation
Controllers: NI Komplete Kontrol S-88 Mk3 & S-49 Mk2; Maschine Mk3 & JAM;
Akai MPK249 & 225, Alesis QX49, Behringer BCF2000 & FCB1010
Rack Modules: Ensoniq ESQm, Yamaha TX81Z, Wavestation SR
Tutorials: https://youtube.com/@CreatorsMediaTools
MOTU 828 mk3 hybrid
DAWs & Live: MOTU Digital Performer 11.31 | Cantabile Performer 4
Keyboard Synths: Kawai K5000s, Korg Wavestation
Controllers: NI Komplete Kontrol S-88 Mk3 & S-49 Mk2; Maschine Mk3 & JAM;
Akai MPK249 & 225, Alesis QX49, Behringer BCF2000 & FCB1010
Rack Modules: Ensoniq ESQm, Yamaha TX81Z, Wavestation SR
Tutorials: https://youtube.com/@CreatorsMediaTools
- James Steele
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
I apologize for the tangental query, but were these Minimus 7s? I ask because I used to have a pair... probably still do buried in a closet.zuul-studios wrote:I forgot to mention that, at one point, I used to have two smaller Radio Shack speakers in my studio that was part of the process (noted above). Those Radio Shack speakers are now happily retired somewhere in my closet of aging audio devices.
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- James Steele
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
What is your setup, Mike? I've heard great things about the Equators and I know Ted is based in the San Diego area where I am. My Event ASP8s have started to strike me as boxy. I'm tempted by the D8s... although maybe D5 and sub is good way to go. What sub are you using if you don't mind me asking?mikehalloran wrote:Till then, my Equator mains and JBL sub are doing what I need. Hmmm... Ted has the new D8 in stock... time to replace my D5s? (No! No! No! My D5s are fine! Really!)
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- mikehalloran
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
A pair of Equator D5sJames Steele wrote:What is your setup, Mike? I've heard great things about the Equators and I know Ted is based in the San Diego area where I am. My Event ASP8s have started to strike me as boxy. I'm tempted by the D8s... although maybe D5 and sub is good way to go. What sub are you using if you don't mind me asking?mikehalloran wrote:Till then, my Equator mains and JBL sub are doing what I need. Hmmm... Ted has the new D8 in stock... time to replace my D5s? (No! No! No! My D5s are fine! Really!)
http://www.equatoraudio.com/D5-Monitors ... p/d5-k.htm
JBL LSR310S sub
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/reco ... Am_SHRHahA
Radial MC3
http://www.radialeng.com/mc3.php
The MC3 has a mono out to the sub that I can control on my desk instead of a sub-cut footswitch. As you can imagine, getting down on the ground to calibrate the sub/mains ratio is a really difficult task for me.
Interestingly, if using a monitor controller with the LSR310S, it's important that the plug be TS unbalanced into one channel only. Because of the noise in my wiring, I use balanced star-quad cabling with a TRS-TS adapter on the end of the sub cable.. A TRS connector drops the level about -10dB.
If using the sub's built in crossover the way most do then balanced cables all the way around are fine and you would put a monitor controller before the sub instead of the way that I do it.
When Ted demo'd the new D8 for me, I heard some wooliness in the bottom that a sub crossed over at 80Hz would eliminate and Ted agreed. He likes the KrK 10s because of the bypass footswitch
http://www.krksys.com/krk-subwoofers/10s.html
The Presonus Temblor T10 gets good marks, too, and also has a bypass switch.
https://www.presonus.com/products/Temblor-T10
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- zuul-studios
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
Regarding sub-woofers. . . I have a whole lot of research to do regarding these things. Never worked with one before. So many unknowns for me. Don't know where, in my modest studio, to properly place the sub-woofer, and don't know the best way to connect it (patch it) to my audio device. Ugh! But the consensus here clearly advocates including a sub-woofer into one's sound system.
Well. . . I will enjoy doing the research. And, I'll most probably include a sub-woofer into my system, hopefully in the not-too-distant future.
Regarding headphones. . . I don't usually mix-down with them (although I have in the past). I use them mostly when recording/sequencing music while my loving wife sleeps at 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM, 4:00 AM in the morning! LOL! (I love my wife and wish to remain married to her! LOL!) I have a pair of AKG 240 MKII headphones which serves my needs. I don't necessarily trust them for mixing down, though.
Please know that I sincerely appreciate the time and input that you've shared. . . .
Ted
(By the way, later today my wife and I leave for Italy for a week. It's a anniversary gift to ourselves as we celebrate 30 years of "marital bliss" this month. LOL! It's our first time visiting a country across the Atlantic. I plan on taking LOTS of pictures and videos. . . creating a "home movie" and scoring music to this project. Yes! Oh. . . I also plan on eating a whole lot of great tasting food! LOVE Italian cuisine!)
Well. . . I will enjoy doing the research. And, I'll most probably include a sub-woofer into my system, hopefully in the not-too-distant future.
Regarding headphones. . . I don't usually mix-down with them (although I have in the past). I use them mostly when recording/sequencing music while my loving wife sleeps at 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM, 4:00 AM in the morning! LOL! (I love my wife and wish to remain married to her! LOL!) I have a pair of AKG 240 MKII headphones which serves my needs. I don't necessarily trust them for mixing down, though.
Please know that I sincerely appreciate the time and input that you've shared. . . .
Ted
(By the way, later today my wife and I leave for Italy for a week. It's a anniversary gift to ourselves as we celebrate 30 years of "marital bliss" this month. LOL! It's our first time visiting a country across the Atlantic. I plan on taking LOTS of pictures and videos. . . creating a "home movie" and scoring music to this project. Yes! Oh. . . I also plan on eating a whole lot of great tasting food! LOVE Italian cuisine!)
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- HCMarkus
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
I recently changed my primary monitoring system sub to this and am, so far, finding it a solid performer:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?p_id=605999
10" with built in x-over and foot switchable bypass. XLR in and out, Class AB 200 watt RMS/400 watt peak power. $220, and Monoprice runs 10-15% off sales storewide quite often.
Input is very sensitive, so gain control is set quite low to match my near-fields (Dynaudio BM5).
Interestingly, you can buy a lot of Monoprice stuff at Amazon with free shipping, but the prices are higher, making direct purchase from Monoprice the typically better deal.
PS: Happy Anniversary Ted!
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?p_id=605999
10" with built in x-over and foot switchable bypass. XLR in and out, Class AB 200 watt RMS/400 watt peak power. $220, and Monoprice runs 10-15% off sales storewide quite often.
Input is very sensitive, so gain control is set quite low to match my near-fields (Dynaudio BM5).
Interestingly, you can buy a lot of Monoprice stuff at Amazon with free shipping, but the prices are higher, making direct purchase from Monoprice the typically better deal.
PS: Happy Anniversary Ted!
- mikehalloran
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
The normal way to hook up a sub is that your audio out goes to the sub first then you run balanced cables to your monitors.
Set the phase switch to the louder position, then balance the level with your mains. You want to hear it as a natural extension to your mains—if it stands out, it's too loud. The foot switch helps. Use recordings you trust so that your mixes can be trusted.
The bypass switch (KrK, Presonus, Monoprice) is a momentary foot switch that takes the sub and its crossover out of the system for comparison. My JBL doesn't have one but I deal with it differently.
Your 824 is -3dB down at 39Hz. This makes the standard 80Hz crossover point a good recommendation. Some studio subs are fixed at 80, others are variable. Transferring the bottom octave to a sub lessens the interaction between your rear-facing passive radiators and the wall behind your speakers. With other monitors, it reduces port interference and resulting anomalies.
Set the phase switch to the louder position, then balance the level with your mains. You want to hear it as a natural extension to your mains—if it stands out, it's too loud. The foot switch helps. Use recordings you trust so that your mixes can be trusted.
The bypass switch (KrK, Presonus, Monoprice) is a momentary foot switch that takes the sub and its crossover out of the system for comparison. My JBL doesn't have one but I deal with it differently.
Your 824 is -3dB down at 39Hz. This makes the standard 80Hz crossover point a good recommendation. Some studio subs are fixed at 80, others are variable. Transferring the bottom octave to a sub lessens the interaction between your rear-facing passive radiators and the wall behind your speakers. With other monitors, it reduces port interference and resulting anomalies.
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
I have to put in a recommendation for the 'Sonarworks' calibaration software. (They have calibration software for monitors as well as headphones.)
Really, really worth the money.... cheaper than having to upgrade to different monitors! If you already have pretty decent monitors, this software just makes them even more useful.
I've been turning out very good mixes from my Event TR6's over the last few years, and work in a fairly well-treated studio setup.
After calibrating my speakers with the Sonarworks microphone/software, and then A/B'ing some music through my Event monitors, I discovered that my inclination to boost some low-mid sounds in a mix (ie. cello and similar frequencies) was justified. The combination of my monitors and room had me wanting to mix very carefully if using those frequencies.
Listening to music through the Sonarworks software calibrated speakers has been a revelation to me... my favorite commercial CD's with great sound (ie. certain film soundtracks, pop, classical, rock, jazz, etc.) now really bring out the 'crunch' of the low-mid's.
Meaning, I can now record and mix with the Sonarworks software inserted and really get an even better idea of how things are fitting together for my own music and mixing.
You can even listen back in true Mono as well.
Fantastic for the studio, especially where you have a pretty good room to mix in but want to make sure that your mixes are going to translate well in the 'real world'.
So, for me, I'd been thinking of upgrading my monitors, and maybe buying some Avantones as well. But now I don't need to.
The price of the Sonarworks is cheaper than buying 'better' monitors that I don't really need for my room and purposes.
Best of all, it has shown to me that I've been doing a pretty good job with what I have been using all along once I was really used to knowing the sound of my Event TR6's and my having to produce music for a wide variety of projects and playback venues.
Check it out! I'm a fan of them. ***Plus, you can mix with your headphones when you need to as well using their software if you have decent headphones to begin with as well.
Really, really worth the money.... cheaper than having to upgrade to different monitors! If you already have pretty decent monitors, this software just makes them even more useful.
I've been turning out very good mixes from my Event TR6's over the last few years, and work in a fairly well-treated studio setup.
After calibrating my speakers with the Sonarworks microphone/software, and then A/B'ing some music through my Event monitors, I discovered that my inclination to boost some low-mid sounds in a mix (ie. cello and similar frequencies) was justified. The combination of my monitors and room had me wanting to mix very carefully if using those frequencies.
Listening to music through the Sonarworks software calibrated speakers has been a revelation to me... my favorite commercial CD's with great sound (ie. certain film soundtracks, pop, classical, rock, jazz, etc.) now really bring out the 'crunch' of the low-mid's.
Meaning, I can now record and mix with the Sonarworks software inserted and really get an even better idea of how things are fitting together for my own music and mixing.
You can even listen back in true Mono as well.
Fantastic for the studio, especially where you have a pretty good room to mix in but want to make sure that your mixes are going to translate well in the 'real world'.
So, for me, I'd been thinking of upgrading my monitors, and maybe buying some Avantones as well. But now I don't need to.
The price of the Sonarworks is cheaper than buying 'better' monitors that I don't really need for my room and purposes.
Best of all, it has shown to me that I've been doing a pretty good job with what I have been using all along once I was really used to knowing the sound of my Event TR6's and my having to produce music for a wide variety of projects and playback venues.
Check it out! I'm a fan of them. ***Plus, you can mix with your headphones when you need to as well using their software if you have decent headphones to begin with as well.
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
I see this is $219 at Sweetwater, versus $299 direct from Sonicworks. Do you use your own mic, or do you have to get theirs?artfarm1 wrote:I have to put in a recommendation for the 'Sonarworks' calibaration software. (They have calibration software for monitors as well as headphones.)
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- mikehalloran
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
It looks like you can get the whole bundle for $299 from Sweetwater:bayswater wrote:I see this is $219 at Sweetwater, versus $299 direct from Sonicworks. Do you use your own mic, or do you have to get theirs?artfarm1 wrote:I have to put in a recommendation for the 'Sonarworks' calibaration software. (They have calibration software for monitors as well as headphones.)
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Sonarworks
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- mikehalloran
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
Being able to listen in true mono lets you hear overall balance and detect phase anomalies in ways that meters just can't.You can even listen back in true Mono as well.
Many (most?) of us use a hardware monitor controller for this but an app that you can just switch in/out certainly gets the job done.
Although there are ways to listen to mixes in mono in any DAW, they are either kludgey or involve creating a separate mono mix—yikes! Nothing is as convenient as toggling mono on/off at your monitors either through software or hardware.
Sonicworks looks pretty good. If the only reason one is looking at a hardware controller is to sum to mono with a switch, this would be a good alternative at the same price as many of the popular units—plus you have the calibration tools.
Last edited by mikehalloran on Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
I bought it from Sonarworks and used their mic.
But, you can use a different mic. They include different calibration settings for some different makes of omnidirectional mics.l
(I got a discount on the trial kit with the mic because I'd previously bought the headphone calibration software.)
But, you can use a different mic. They include different calibration settings for some different makes of omnidirectional mics.l
(I got a discount on the trial kit with the mic because I'd previously bought the headphone calibration software.)
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Trombones: King 2B SilverSonic, King 2B Liberty, & Conn 88H w/Doug Elliott mouthpieces!
http://www.cammillarmusic.com
MacMini 2023 M2Pro, 16 gig RAM, MOTU M6, SSD drives for everything, various sound/sampled libraries from all major vendors, Logic Pro X, DSP-Quattro
MacBook Pro 2015, OSX Monterey, 2.5ghz, 16 gig RAM (w/duplicate software as in MacMini setup)
Trombones: King 2B SilverSonic, King 2B Liberty, & Conn 88H w/Doug Elliott mouthpieces!
http://www.cammillarmusic.com
- mikehalloran
- Posts: 15235
- Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
- Primary DAW OS: MacOS
- Location: Sillie Con Valley
Re: A Question Regarding the Art of Mixing Down. . .
I use this mic with the recommended iOS app to balance my system. It does not do anything to calibrate the response of my monitors, of course.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AD ... UTF8&psc=1
http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/im ... phone.html
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AD ... UTF8&psc=1
http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/im ... phone.html
Hmmm... maybe I can put this on my kids' Christmas list for Dad.artfarm1 wrote:
I have to put in a recommendation for the 'Sonarworks' calibaration software. (They have calibration software for monitors as well as headphones.)
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4.1, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4.1, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro