DP The Ultimate Live Playback System

[Dwetmaster]

Been using DP Live for years and love it. But BOY would I love to be able to move the playhead around and keep it on the click "À la Ableton Live".

To me, THAT would make DP the champion of the world...

What do you guys think? What missing feature would make DP the Usain Bolt of DAWs for live use

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Robust notation.

[bayswater]

More automatic and natural tempo mapping like Freestyle (from MOTU) did.

[Saintmatthew]

Been using DP Live for years and love it. But BOY would I love to be able to move the playhead around and keep it on the click "À la Ableton Live".

To me, THAT would make DP the champion of the world...

What do you guys think? What missing feature would make DP the Usain Bolt of DAWs for live use

I use both but I'm not really sure what you mean.

[Dwetmaster]

I mean being able to cue the playhead to different places in the timeline and having DP jump to it at the end of the bar so that it always stays on time. Like Ableton Live.

Timeline flexibility has become a must in live music nowadays. Most artist don't want to be slave of a rigid timeline anymore.

[Shooshie]

I mean being able to cue the playhead to different places in the timeline and having DP jump to it at the end of the bar so that it always stays on time. .

I've ALWAYS wanted that. I'd also like to jump from chunk to chunk with no pause. I wish there were a real-time queue to which we could drag markers, bars, chunks, or whatever, and it would just play them in time without leaving our main windows. Sort of like the Song Window, only more flexible, transparent, and non-binding, plus you could be working in any window while doing it. This would be more of a timeline thing, or Tracks Window thing, where you drag or click on ranges of any sort, or just move the cursor, and locations are cued up to play without gaps. (though you could put gaps in, too) And all done on the fly, real time, with no artifacts.

Just dreaming in public here.

Shoosh

[Dwetmaster]

Yeah Shooshie, I think that these features could REALLY put DP on top in the "Live Playback" race. The chunks and V-Racks are already a HUGE advantage. But without being able to be flexible in the timeline, it's harder to get a gig with DP now.

[MixHitz]

Hey guys!
Glad to see this thread. I'm using DP for a few big shows and am looking for collaboration on creating a bulletproof redundant system. I too have a few ideas on some improvements.

First, hands down chunks are absolutely unbeatable. I've used PT, Logic, and even Live. I'm a new user to DP but definitely see it as advantageous over the others.

Obviously DP wasn't designed as a playback software but obviously excels. But I think if other users really chime in with suggestions, maybe MOTU will take notice and implement the important and/or easy to code.

1) I need the playback head to be assignable to a marker. Example: Chunk 1 finishes playing and using "cue next chunk" chunk 2 is ready to play. However chunk 2 (seq 2) audio does not start on the one, it starts on the three. So, I have a marker at the three that I have to navigate to quickly which isn't the easiest of things when we're moving quickly through the setlist. I'd like to be able to click on a marker and select "playback starts here". So, chunk one ends, chunk 2 cues at the chosen marker. This may seem trivial, but in some of our big arena shows, we have different markers throughout a sequence so that we can have a long intro, a short intro or as stated, songs that don't start "on the one".

2) I'd love for the chunks window to be user definable so that I can change font size or enlarge the window. It's one of the most important elements of our shows, so being able to see it and change the look would be very helpful.

3) Redundant playback. I haven't found a rock solid solution to locking these together that I'm super comfortable with. And trust me I've tried everything and spend all my off time trying to perfect it.

I'm using 4 828's and 2 radial switchers and laptop A & B. (15" MacBook Pro Retina) I've tried using a MIDI controller to MIDI splitter and can't get both systems to be close. Very unpredictable. Used MIDI splitter and then put DP in wait mode, thought that would fix everything. No, still unpredictable results.

SMPTE time code (MOTU app NOT plugin) so far the best, but not the most hands free.
I'm sending code fro the out of one 828 (A) to the in of another (B)
B app is receiving and I have freewheel set to 10 secs
This works the best so far as if A were to crash, B would continue, I just quickly have to switch from 10 second freewheel to infinite.
The problem lies when going from chunk 1 (which is about 4:30) and chunk 2 (1:20) it skips over chunk 2 because it's shorter than one (Timecode wise)

I just want B to follow a seamlessly without jumping through hoops

Press play on A, B starts. Chunk one on A ends, B ends (that happens) but I'd love if I hit play on chunk 2 on A, chunk 2 on B would start.

3) And as mentioned I too would love to see a command that allows to to choose and play a chunk on the fly (from a stopped instance) If you're in the middle of playback, you can select another chunk and it will play, but I don't believe there is currently a way to choose and fire a chunk in one command.

Complete control is the only thing making Live attractive (max for live allows you to create your own setups and features)

[Dwetmaster]

Hey guys!

3) Redundant playback. I haven't found a rock solid solution to locking these together that I'm super comfortable with. And trust me I've tried everything and spend all my off time trying to perfect it.

I'm using 4 828's and 2 radial switchers and laptop A & B. (15" MacBook Pro Retina) I've tried using a MIDI controller to MIDI splitter and can't get both systems to be close. Very unpredictable. Used MIDI splitter and then put DP in wait mode, thought that would fix everything. No, still unpredictable results.

The best way I found was to control both computer with the same controller so they are always doing the same commands, and you "Dock Compress" (Like a DJ over his music...) Computer B using Computer A as a compressor Key. Both computer are always playing back but If "A" fails, then you'd hear "B" seemlessly.

You can even use the SMPTE timecode as a Key signal to do your compression.

[daniel.sneed]

Just my two cents: DP has a *go to next marker* command.

I've used that on stage, while playing live many instruments.
The show was set on a single long sequence.
DP was set to play some background sounds, for some parts of the show.

I send commands to DP, thru hitting a foot controller (Keith McMillen *Softstep*).
A command was set to *start playback*, another to *pause playback*, another to *go to next marker* and voila. Worked just fine.

BTW I've set a MIDI note assigned to IAC, to get many automatic stops within a single sequence, whenever needed.
But I've noticed that these automatic stops may drift a little between sessions. Never figured out why. But rehearsals and tweaking solved the case.

Setting all this was achieved in that great DP Command window.
Motu rocks!

[Shooshie]

3) Redundant playback. I haven't found a rock solid solution to locking these together that I'm super comfortable with. And trust me I've tried everything and spend all my off time trying to perfect it.

I'm using 4 828's and 2 radial switchers and laptop A & B. (15" MacBook Pro Retina) I've tried using a MIDI controller to MIDI splitter and can't get both systems to be close. Very unpredictable. Used MIDI splitter and then put DP in wait mode, thought that would fix everything. No, still unpredictable results.

SMPTE time code (MOTU app NOT plugin) so far the best, but not the most hands free.
I'm sending code fro the out of one 828 (A) to the in of another (B)
B app is receiving and I have freewheel set to 10 secs
This works the best so far as if A were to crash, B would continue, I just quickly have to switch from 10 second freewheel to infinite.
The problem lies when going from chunk 1 (which is about 4:30) and chunk 2 (1:20) it skips over chunk 2 because it's shorter than one (Timecode wise)

I just want B to follow a seamlessly without jumping through hoops

Press play on A, B starts. Chunk one on A ends, B ends (that happens) but I'd love if I hit play on chunk 2 on A, chunk 2 on B would start.

Many, and possibly most, of the largest touring shows use DP for sequence control. It usually functions as the central time caller, cueing everything from lights to machines, not to mention audio and MIDI.

I used it that way for 20 years, and not once did it ever fail on tour or rehearsal, though of course there were occasional glitches when creating the music and writing cues. I could probably count on one hand the number of times DP actually crashed while I was on the clock over all those years, and never was it during regular playback, as in rehearsal or performance. However, I did have a redundant system running at all times when listeners were present. I tried SMPTE at first, but that became tedious, having to start and stop two systems, and I viewed that as a complication that was MORE likely to lead to a glitch or crash, so I stopped using it.

I saw a possible glitch as a "technical malfunction" during which time the artist(s) would simply need to ad-lib while I diagnosed the source. I mean, it could have been a MIDI Time Piece going offline due to a power fluctuation or something like that, so what good would SMPTE do then? You'd need to swap cables, anyway, so in a meeting with management and talent, we'd determine that the best solution for our needs was simply an alert director (me) who would quickly surmise the problem, then do whatever it took to get the show back underway, with the agreement that we'd be returning to the start of the affected song, unless it happened within seconds of the end, in which case we'd probably just go on to the next song. I personally rehearsed the possible problems and their fixes, so that I would not be letting seconds tick by as I figured out what to do.
• If DP was still running and outputting signal, but nothing was reaching the stage, then chances were that the MTP was dead. Solution? Switch to redundant system.
• If all screens were dark, power was out. Solution? Check the power supplies and the Furman, follow connections to the nearest known power source still in operation.
• DP frozen, redundant system still running. Solution? Swap MIDI cable from MTP to redundant computer. Continue show.

Swapping to a redundant system isn't as easy as it sounds. You've got to swap audio and MIDI, and there are many factors that determine where you make the swap. Do you just plug in the interfaces to the other computer? Do you have other interfaces running and switch their outputs to all the devices? At some point you look at the accruing expense of such a complete switch through automated or a simple rotary switch, and you realize that sometimes the audience just has to wait. They've all experienced computer crashes. They can manage if the artists are giving them a show while you're working on it.

However, there are fairly simple, yet automated ways of doing it, and one of the best I've seen is Mike McKnight's, who has done this for Madonna, Pink Floyd, and many other big name shows. In his case, a continuous signal is monitored for presence; if it is interrupted, a switch automatically kicks in the redundant system. You'd have to look him up to find where he has described this. He had a custom unit built specifically for this purpose. Really, his method is ingenious, and I wish I'd thought of it. Actually, I did, sort of, but never found management to be willing to invest in it.

BUT... and this is a big but... DP never crashed. All that planning never was needed. One possible reason that I never had trouble was because I simplified everything. At all times, I was running the bare minimum in terms of live output that I could possibly get away with. No plugins. If you're running audio, use rendered audio. No live plugins. Keep connections simple. The more stuff you put in there to handle possible outages and switching systems, the more likely you are to have to use it. The absolute best protection is a simplified system in which you never have to do more than hit "Play" at the appropriate time for the chunks as they are cued and waiting. Some of my sequences were lighting-only sequences during the scene changes between songs. But even those were just a matter of hitting "Play" again. I didn't stop sequences; just started them. I would open windows to follow along, especially if I had to cue performers by conducting them offstage, but even those I soon had committed to memory, so I rarely even opened a window. The chunks were chained to play, switch, and stop. I hit play, and the process repeated until the concert was over and the lights were up or down or however they wanted them. The most complicated thing I usually did on tour was change the set list, and then it was only a problem if the lighting didn't segue into the next scene, but I'd planned for that by making sure that all sequences ended with cues that segued to the interstitial scene cues, etc. (the lighting director and I would plan these together)

So... this should be as simple as a one-key operation. You might even consider making a keyboard cover that prevents any other keys from being touched during the show, except the ENTER or SPACEBAR. It's not unheard of for some stagehand or an idiot with a backstage pass to lean over and say "what does this key do" while pressing it and laughing. In DP, that can have significant consequences. With me as MD, it can also have serious consequences on the health of the person who did it. But a keyboard cover fixes most of that. An armed guard would also be nice.

Redundant systems are great on paper, but a little more complicated when you really go through what it would take to switch them out. Your best bet is always simply not to crash. As I said, I did 20 years or more of live touring in large and small venues, and never had a single problem. That's one of the reasons I love DP. It stayed with me and never complained.

Shoosh

[Shooshie]

Here are a couple MOTU write-ups on Mike McKnight. The first is a video, and the second is a written interview. In each of them he mentions his 72 in/24 out switch for doing a full audio switchover to any of his three rigs. Still, there's an article I haven't found that describes his switch and routing in detail, including the waveform that's monitored for continuity and switching. If I find that one, I'll post it, too.
http://motu.com/newsitems/motu-artist-s ... e-mcknight
http://motu.com/newsitems/atnewsitem.20 ... 8308068605

In trying to find the article McKnight, I came across these others:
Greg Rule does some of the big shows:
http://motu.com/newsitems/on-tour-with- ... -performer

Kwiz is Beyoncé's MD, and an active member of this forum:
http://motu.com/newsitems/beyonce-is-on-fire

Scott Healy works on Conan:
http://motu.com/newsitems/atnewsitem.20 ... 2490445747

When I started doing this, I'd never heard of any of these guys. We all worked more or less in isolation, because when you're doing this on a job, you're usually the only one who does it, or even knows what the heck it is that you do. Honestly, one of the big problems I had was in defining my role and putting a title on it. I was a part of everything: video, show control, audio, MIDI, conducting, not to mention set up and strike of touring sets. I ran my own cables; could not trust a stagehand to get it perfect, and I coiled them after striking. On the occasion when some kind soul thought to help me by coiling my cables, I'd be fighting gigantic 50 ft. tangles at the next stop.

But what I'd have given to have known about my colleagues out there, and to have access to them through the MOTU site! Just hearing their ideas, seeing how our setups evolved pretty much identically over time, and knowing that they, too, were going through the same kind of pressures, decisions, and had the same needs, would have been a tremendous help to me back in the early days. The hardest part for me was getting the leads of other systems on board. Lighting Directors, video directors, etc., all have their own egos to preserve, and they did not take well in the early days to having this MIDI guy telling them what they can or can't do. But that's the path we all chose, so they had to go along. I tried to make it easy for everyone, but to do that, I had to know their systems, too, so I had manuals for every device on a tour. (and had read the parts on show control)

It'll always be a position of great pressure and responsibility, but just having resources now that you can come to for information makes it so much easier! And yes, DP is the Ultimate Live Playback System!

Shooshie

[MixHitz]

Thanks for all the replies guys!
I hope I didn't confuse anyone as if I'm trying to build a system and get it to work. I'm trying to perfect a system I've used for 5 seasons of a TV show as MD and using it for performances with artists like Chris Brown, Future, Kendrick Lamar, T-Pain, MGK, Kid Ink, Post Malone, The Game and tons more as well as current tours with T.I. and spot dates with Snoop and Usher. My system works, it hasn't crashed. I use 1K control tones to autoswitch my Radials. I just want to take one less worry out of my equation. I'm currently having to use smpte to have B chase A. I tried using a controller sending MIDI message via a splitter to A & B, yes they both start but not within a frame or so. The results are different each time. That WON't work when your'e sending a ton of stems, click, slates, timecode for video and patch changes. So, smpte it is and here's what happens... Chunk 1 (show intro) Press play on A and B chases because B is waiting (awesome) Chunk 1 ends on A & B and because of using cue chunks (because next song will start immediately) Chunk 2 cues up (Awesome) No, wait... because I'm freewheeling (which you HAVE to do because if not, when A stops, B will stop) Here's where it gets tricky, Chunk 1 is over 4 mins, Chunk 2 is 1:30. Because Chunk 1 is longer (and A is the TC generator) when it cues chunk 2, the B machine is still seeing the 4 minute position and doesn't see that on the timeline of Chunk 2 (being it's only 1:30) thus skipping over Chunk 2 on B and going right to Chunk 3 and just chilling (huh?)

So that is my frustration. I'd love to be able to just do whatever I want on A and B just follows along quietly without me getting frustrated and just concentrating on the shows.

I even had a thought that creating a MIDI track on A (similar to the program changes I send for keyboard patches) that would be a PLAY command for B, but again, too much delay.



I've even though about putting together a video so it makes more sense. And even a tutorial video because there's a lot of vids of "checkout my playback rig" but there's not a lot out there saying "hey guys, if you're trying to do this, here's how".

[Shooshie]

Glad to know you're more experienced; I was afraid you were starting out, starry-eyed and hoping to do it all, and do it on two machines that perfectly mirrored each others' actions. So, you know the limits we've all run into. There's always a little something that keeps it from being a perfect system.

One thing you might try, and I have NOT tried it, so I don't even know if it will work: load your playlist into a Song window, and see if you can do a continuous SMPTE sync through that. It may not offer you the real-time control that you want, but if you're not trying to edit or change routing as you go, it may indeed offer you something. If your entire playlist can be synced to a simple SMPTE channel, non-freewheeling, you may be able to manage this. The problem, then, would be stopping between chunks, since they would no longer be "chained," and there would be nothing to stop them. However, there may be a way around that, too. If you were to create a chunk with nothing but either a Custom Console or a MIDI command using the MIDI Master, that contains only one thing — a STOP command. You could insert it between every chunk, in the Song window, and it would essentially do the same thing. One chunk can be used multiple times, so your "Stop Chunk" would only have to be created once.

The question is whether the Song window behaves under SMPTE. I've never used it that way. At least, I don't remember it if I did. I stopped using it regularly in the mid 1990s.

You might try it with a couple of sequences as a proof of concept. Let me know if it works!

Shoosh

[tommymandel]

I've ALWAYS wanted that. I'd also like to jump from chunk to chunk with no pause. I wish there were a real-time queue to which we could drag markers, bars, chunks, or whatever, and it would just play them in time without leaving our main windows. Sort of like the Song Window, only more flexible, transparent, and non-binding, plus you could be working in any window while doing it. This would be more of a timeline thing, or Tracks Window thing, where you drag or click on ranges of any sort, or just move the cursor, and locations are cued up to play without gaps. (though you could put gaps in, too) And all done on the fly, real time, with no artifacts.

Just dreaming in public here.

Shoosh

+1
That would be a great addition!