Pricing post jobs (from a newb)

[soapsounds]

If there is anyone who has experience pricing pro audio jobs I could really use some advice. This is my first post here and I know this is a complicated question for a first post (sorry!!). However, having been a visitor of this forum and a faithful DP and 828 user/fan for almost 4 years, I know that there are a lot of extremely talented people who frequent here so I am hoping you will consider offering me some advice from your wealth of professional experience.

Here is my situation- I have a basement studio and until recently have only recorded/composed for myself and friends. However, a few weeks ago I got an opportunity to do some composing and sound design for a regional tv commercial. Nothing huge but it's still good experience. The trouble is, I have no idea how to price this sort of work. It looks like I might be doing more commercials in the future for this same company so I need to be able to give a good answer when I'm asked "what will it cost?". I'm wondering if any one here could offer me some suggestions?

Here's the specs of the piece I did the audio for:

1. It's a 30 second television commercial
2. It will air on a major network station
3. I believe it will run 6x a day (3 of those between 5 and 8 at night) every week for 3 months.
4. It took me roughly a full day to complete the work.
5. Lastly, the city that will see this commercial is a little over a million.

If anyone has experience pricing this sort of work I would truly appreciate your suggestions. Particularly hints as to what sort of formula (if one exists) there is for figuring out pricing for future work(if I get it!).

Thanks so much for your help!

PS- I realize some of you may share the same work territory and may not want to post your pricing methods here for all to see. If that's the case and if you are still willing to answer my question please consider emailing me at soapsounds@yahoo.com. Thanks!

[lightningad]

no reply from the DUC huh?

I can't give you figures, as its not my area (or even country) but you might try asking at the musicians unions or the recording rights people. I forget the actual name of the organisation but they are the ones who police the paying of royalties to artists. They would be more likely to give you fair and honest advice.

good luck

[RGMD]

Someone sent this info to me about a year ago. Sorry for any weird line ends. I cut and pasted and tried to fix it up where I could.

Rates vary all over the place depending on the client. Every job is different, and the $ can vary widely based on your experience, # of live musicians (are you using an orchestra) etc. That said, budgets for score-to-picture commercials often range from:

$500 - $2000 and up for local commercials for a :30 spot. Cutdowns are often charged at 50% of the the :30 price. Expect to be nickel and dimed at the local level, and often you'll just have to suck it up, especially if you're just getting going.

$15,000 (low-end) - 25,000 (about average) and higher for a national :30 spot. Note that many national agencies require live players to be union musicians and that it is the music production company's responsibility to pay those fees and deal with the union paperwork. This $ comes out of the budget, and is not usually an add-on -- so make sure you know what you're getting into. If they need 50 players, make sure they're paying you accordingly.

Most commercials are works-for-hire. They keep copyright and publishing, you keep composer's share.

At the local level, a spec demo is pretty normal, and I wouldn't hesitate to do a bunch (great for musical practice, as well as the equally important job of working with and understanding your prospective clients). At the national level, demo fees range from $500 to $2000 per pitch, but you have to be asked first by the agency. It is super, super cutthroat at the top and the "big boys" have pretty serious facilities -- which doesn't always make for better music, but is great for impressing / pampering the client and providing them their soy lattes while they recline like Caesar on your Corbusier daybed and feel like Puff Daddy as they tell you that the track isn't "orange" enough.

Adweek reports that average commercial cost is $332,000 with music average at $34,000.

The organization Meet the Composer (I think that's their website too) has a composer pricing guide for all sorts of media but it is from 1992.

[David Jones]

It is probably a real good idea to decide on a rate structure before you get clients.
But since this is not the case...
You say you did a days worth of work to complete the project,
then bill the client for a day.

[mr miyagi]

For a regional commercial - and I'm talking music only - I have come across budgets from between $2500 to $6500. What I try to do with a situation like this is to retain ownership of the track and just license it to the client for a certain period of time - lets say six months to a year. This way, you can re-use your music, or if the same client wants to use the same thing next year, you can charge a another license fee. However, they may ask for a buyout and that may be the only way to do it. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Yes, on a national level commercial, if it's done with a signatory ad agency (they have signed an agreement with the union - AFM - the American Federation of Musicians) you would have to generate a television recorded commercial session contract. However, as far as use fees, the agency and their client is responsible for paying residuals. A track for a spot (commercial) can be used for 13 weeks. then the following 13 weeks a REUSE fee must be paid, which is 75% of the session fee. You can get all this info on one of the AFM websites, there are local chapters all around the U.S. The one in Los Angeles is the local 47. For larger advertisers on a regional/national basis, budgets do tend to run in the $12,000 - $25,000 range. I've worked as a producer on spots for IBM using full orchestra where we have had $55,000 - $70,000. But that's IBM, with a full union orchestra.

Since your spot is airing just locally - even though you said in your post: (2. it will air on a major network station) - it sounds to me it's just an affiliate of a major network station, the local station that's a CBS, ABC, or NBC station. This is just local. It only airs on a national basis if the commercial is actually part of the national broadcast generated out of the parent network. This makes a difference in earning performance royalties - you can actually make a good chunk of change if you register your track with the PROs (Performance Rights Organizations) whether you're ASCAP, BMI or SESAC - if it's an actual network (national) broadcast. There's very little on the back end of a local broadcast.

In your particular case, I would come up with a set fee and if there more work involved (hiring live musicians, etc) I'd add in more to the fee so you're compensated well for your track. The important thing is to have your client keep coming back to you for more and more gigs. Find a good compromise to keep yourself and your client happy.

[AJAzure]

For a regional commercial - and I'm talking music only - I have come across budgets from between $2500 to $6500. What I try to do with a situation like this is to retain ownership of the track and just license it to the client for a certain period of time - lets say six months to a year. This way, you can re-use your music, or if the same client wants to use the same thing next year, you can charge a another license fee. However, they may ask for a buyout and that may be the only way to do it. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Yes, on a national level commercial, if it's done with a signatory ad agency (they have signed an agreement with the union - AFM - the American Federation of Musicians) you would have to generate a television recorded commercial session contract. However, as far as use fees, the agency and their client is responsible for paying residuals. A track for a spot (commercial) can be used for 13 weeks. then the following 13 weeks a REUSE fee must be paid, which is 75% of the session fee. You can get all this info on one of the AFM websites, there are local chapters all around the U.S. The one in Los Angeles is the local 47. For larger advertisers on a regional/national basis, budgets do tend to run in the $12,000 - $25,000 range. I've worked as a producer on spots for IBM using full orchestra where we have had $55,000 - $70,000. But that's IBM, with a full union orchestra.

Since your spot is airing just locally - even though you said in your post: (2. it will air on a major network station) - it sounds to me it's just an affiliate of a major network station, the local station that's a CBS, ABC, or NBC station. This is just local. It only airs on a national basis if the commercial is actually part of the national broadcast generated out of the parent network. This makes a difference in earning performance royalties - you can actually make a good chunk of change if you register your track with the PROs (Performance Rights Organizations) whether you're ASCAP, BMI or SESAC - if it's an actual network (national) broadcast. There's very little on the back end of a local broadcast.

In your particular case, I would come up with a set fee and if there more work involved (hiring live musicians, etc) I'd add in more to the fee so you're compensated well for your track. The important thing is to have your client keep coming back to you for more and more gigs. Find a good compromise to keep yourself and your client happy.

ggreat stuff except for one major misconception that we're being handed as composers. PROs pay us diddly for ads. CPA work is the lowest paid on the rung. Songwriters get the lion's share and it's arbitrary discrimination. Weighting are a lie to funnel funds to songwriters (mainly ones on the boards especially ASCAP). We should avoid giving up rights as much as posisble but, the reaosn why they so readily try to buy our rights is that they know we get shafted on the PRO level.If you'd like to know more about it check out filmmusicworld.com

By the way SESAC is not an option unless you are approached by them. Only BMI and ASCAP take applications.