Dropped MIDI notes

[daveswallace]

When MIDI notes of the same value extend for their full or near-full range, performer drops the next note in sequence simply ignoring playback.

1st Scenario: pencil in a MIDI 1/2 note, then copy it so you have 2 sequential halves; DP7 drops the second note and will not play it, either finishing the previous note's tail, clipping, or ignoring the note ends, treating all the notes as one and finishing when the sample ends.

2nd Scenario: pencil in a whole note, then cut it into 2 half notes; DP drops the second.

3nd Scenario: pencil in a whole note, then cut it into 4 quarter notes; DP only plays the first in the sequence.

The only way for me to work is to make each note less than it's full value. (I used to write directly in, now I must either select all and adjust their ends or copy adjusted notes to make them all sound.) I've had this issue in Kontakt 4, Play, and even DP's own instruments. MOTU couldn't help and just blamed my external plugins. DP5 never did it, DP7 always has. Don't know why I never asked here.

[James Steele]

Are you still on DP7? Last DP7 version was 7.24. This may have been addressed in DP8. Latest now is 8.04.

[daveswallace]

I'm in 7.24. I see no sense upgrading a broken product, and I need it to work now, not down the road after an upgrade.

[James Steele]

I'm in 7.24. I see no sense upgrading a broken product, and I need it to work now, not down the road after an upgrade.

Are you assuming that 8.04 is broken? DP 7.24 isn't going to fix itself and MOTU is not going to release a 7.25 bug fix version, so all anyone can do is share the possible solution with you. Then it's up to you.

[daveswallace]

I'm a little confused – I was hoping to get some help, not just hear "why haven't you upgraded yet?"

Are we assuming this is a build problem? I've never heard of anyone with something similar.

[James Steele]

No. What I'm saying is that this may be a bug that is fixed in a later version, namely DP8. Sometimes it happens that way. If that's the case, that may be the only way to "fix" it.

[James Steele]

And yes, the stuck notes with releases very close to the next attack (note on) was a known issue. I'm hoping someone else will chime in as to what version fixed this, but it may be that it might be later than DP 7.24. If you don't want to update to DP8 than your only workaround might have to be selecting all notes and shaving off a certain amount of ticks from the durations.

[bayswater]

When MIDI notes of the same value extend for their full or near-full range, performer drops the next note in sequence simply ignoring playback.

1st Scenario: pencil in a MIDI 1/2 note, then copy it so you have 2 sequential halves; DP7 drops the second note and will not play it, either finishing the previous note's tail, clipping, or ignoring the note ends, treating all the notes as one and finishing when the sample ends.

2nd Scenario: pencil in a whole note, then cut it into 2 half notes; DP drops the second.

3nd Scenario: pencil in a whole note, then cut it into 4 quarter notes; DP only plays the first in the sequence.

The only way for me to work is to make each note less than it's full value. (I used to write directly in, now I must either select all and adjust their ends or copy adjusted notes to make them all sound.) I've had this issue in Kontakt 4, Play, and even DP's own instruments. MOTU couldn't help and just blamed my external plugins. DP5 never did it, DP7 always has. Don't know why I never asked here.

Yes, until recently, DP's treatment of MIDI appeared to give Note On commands priority. So if you had a Note On and a Note Off at the same time, it looked like the Note Off command was processed after the Note On command, and so the second note did not play because it was turned off as soon as it was turned on. I don't know why MOTU chose to do it this way when everyone else did it the other way around. Maybe it was to make sure that new notes are started exactly when they are supposed to start, regardless of how much other MIDI information had to be processed at the same moment, thus preserving MIDI timing. But that's how they did it. The work around was to set your ticks per beat to a very high level, and use a general note length command to take one tick off each note. Then, the Note Off was executed for the first note, and then the repeat note was triggered a little later by the Note On command. You can set this up with key commands.

As James said, it looks like they started processing MIDI like everyone else at V8. So you're options are to stay with DP 7 and record MIDI so when a note is repeated, you stop the first one before you start the second one (leave a small gap), or move to DP 8.

[Shooshie]

When MIDI notes of the same value extend for their full or near-full range, performer drops the next note in sequence simply ignoring playback.

1st Scenario: pencil in a MIDI 1/2 note, then copy it so you have 2 sequential halves; DP7 drops the second note and will not play it, either finishing the previous note's tail, clipping, or ignoring the note ends, treating all the notes as one and finishing when the sample ends.

2nd Scenario: pencil in a whole note, then cut it into 2 half notes; DP drops the second.

3nd Scenario: pencil in a whole note, then cut it into 4 quarter notes; DP only plays the first in the sequence.

The only way for me to work is to make each note less than it's full value. (I used to write directly in, now I must either select all and adjust their ends or copy adjusted notes to make them all sound.) I've had this issue in Kontakt 4, Play, and even DP's own instruments. MOTU couldn't help and just blamed my external plugins. DP5 never did it, DP7 always has. Don't know why I never asked here.

I need more information. Are you saying take a series of the SAME NOTE? Then extend them to their full range? It doesn't actually ignore repeated notes, it turns them off if you place a note-off right after a note-on. This has been a MIDI problem since the beginning of time. You extend a note past the repeated attack of the same note, and the note-off of the first one will cancel both. That's basic MIDI. No synthesizer I know has the ability to discern how many times note-on was pushed, then make sure that each note-on is treated as a separate note, and then counting the note-off commands and… so forth.

So, the problem then is extending the notes to the full value. When I do this, and I've always done this, I extend them to the full value, then select the whole line of notes and decrease their duration by 1 tick. Another way is to select them all and extend to the next attack. I think that works. Seems like there are two of those types of commands buried in "Change Duration." And it seems like one of them allows you to get them close to the next attack. I haven't looked in a while, because I do it the way I just told you: Drag them to the next beat, then as a group change their duration to -1.

Maybe MOTU could provide a way to drag to the next beat without really reaching the next beat. I've always wanted that, myself. But it wouldn't REALLY be "to the next beat." I think that we need to leave some things alone. If it says it moves it to the next beat, then it needs to do that, and we — as knowledgeable MIDI engineers — need to compensate as necessary. We can't have the machine making all our choices and decisions. It needs to do what it says it does, and we need to use that information when making our decisions, such as to shorten the whole mess by -1 tick.

Have I missed your point? Am I barking up the wrong tree? Tell me if I need to re-read your post and consider it more carefully. What I THINK you said is the same problem I hear a lot from people doing MIDI, and the answer is the same I've told people for decades. But If you said something different, do tell me again. Thanks.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Yes, until recently, DP's treatment of MIDI appeared to give Note On commands priority. So if you had a Note On and a Note Off at the same time, it looked like the Note Off command was processed after the Note On command, and so the second note did not play because it was turned off as soon as it was turned on. I don't know why MOTU chose to do it this way when everyone else did it the other way around. Maybe it was to make sure that new notes are started exactly when they are supposed to start, regardless of how much other MIDI information had to be processed at the same moment, thus preserving MIDI timing. But that's how they did it. The work around was to set your ticks per beat to a very high level, and use a general note length command to take one tick off each note. Then, the Note Off was executed for the first note, and then the repeat note was triggered a little later by the Note On command. You can set this up with key commands.

As James said, it looks like they started processing MIDI like everyone else at V8. So you're options are to stay with DP 7 and record MIDI so when a note is repeated, you stop the first one before you start the second one (leave a small gap), or move to DP 8.

They didn't always do it the right way. As far back as I can remember I had a QuicKeys routine to do a Change Duration by -1 tick, and it was just something I automatically did when I had lines of full quarter notes. But maybe it was something they fixed way back there, and I just never noticed it had been fixed. Sounds like they unfixed it and fixed it again. Nice to know it's fixed, anyway. Makes perfect sense that they'd process the Off before the On, and it always teed me off when it didn't work that way. But I didn't stop to worry about it. I just made the QuicKeys command and moved on.

Shoosh

[bayswater]

They didn't always do it the right way. As far back as I can remember I had a QuicKeys routine to do a Change Duration by -1 tick, and it was just something I automatically did when I had lines of full quarter notes. But maybe it was something they fixed way back there, and I just never noticed it had been fixed. Sounds like they unfixed it and fixed it again. Nice to know it's fixed, anyway. Makes perfect sense that they'd process the Off before the On, and it always teed me off when it didn't work that way. But I didn't stop to worry about it. I just made the QuicKeys command and moved on.

Shoosh

I had the problem at least up to V 7.24. I just got in the habit, like you, of shortening notes to avoid having On and Off events occurring at the same time. Having a small gap is certainly not a musical problem.

[daveswallace]

Gentlemen, thank you for your expertise – now I understand the casual nature of the "update" suggestions. I'm surprised this is a long known issue, especially a programmed one, since I spent hours with MOTU trying to fix it not long after 7's release, to no avail. Usually yes, I can work around it, but I'm in the inconvenient position of needing to score a perfectly smooth pitch slide at a particular rate over several octaves. My work-arounds for shortening were not nearly so elegant. Thanks for your suggestions–I'll put them straight to work. Perhaps it's time to update when my project plate clears.

[bayswater]

Dave, I just noticed your signature says you're on 10.6.7 and 7.22. I think most here would suggest that 10.6.8 and 7.24 would be a better combination, and a free update in both cases.

[James Steele]

I'll second that. I'm on DP8.04 and 10.6.8 now, but the DP 7.24 and 10.6.8 combo was probably the best since DP 5.13 and Leopard. I think DP8 is quickly approaching that kind of stability.

[fsheinfeld]

I'm curious about this too since I had the same problem (7.24). Is it fixed on DP 8.04?