project studio: converters, interfaces, monitor control

[vandegraaff]

I've been writing songs with DP for almost 20 years but have had to let my gear go by the way side for various reasons. I'm now planning to rebuild my project studio, starting with interface/converters, monitor control, new near fields, a solid mic chain, acoustical treatments and outboard gear starting with a stereo mic pre. I'm basically starting from scratch, and having never personally owned any Class A gear, I wanted to know what combinations other DP users have had success with.

High quality, low noise, stability, longevity, and ease of use are priority to me. I want Class A equipment that will last and allow me to work fast and mix ITB and expand to outboard in near future. I like to rough mix my VIs as I write to get a better feel. I have no brand loyalties and am open to any suggestions. I don't mind spending several thousand on each piece of gear if it's warranted. I simply lack the experience with the high-end gear and am trying to avoid making foolish assumptions about what will work best together.

I'd like to keep the focus in this thread on INTERFACES, CONVERTERS, and MONITORING CONTROL, not near field monitors themselves, preamp options, effects, acoustical treatments, and I don't have protools and won't be getting it anytime soon. All important, but I'd rather discuss that stuff in other threads. I'm interested to hear of your experiences with interfaces with A/D D/A vs using a converter connected to an interface and how to manage multiple analog signals going into limited AD/DA with limited outboard (which types of connections are cleanest, cable lengths, if patch bay is best, future-proof expansion, etc).

What I have/need:

I'm on a Mac Pro 3,1 OS X 10.8.2 with 32GB RAM, SSD boot drive, and 9TB of internal SATA, running DP8, Waves, Stylus RMX, Absynth, bunch of Play Libraries, BFD2, Vienna Instruments. X-board 49 and Akai MPK88 for control. I have 3 outboard sound modules, 2 mics that need phantom (only need to record one at a time), and will be recording single guitar/bass and single strings (instrument cable and/or mic'd). I plan on using a pair of near field monitors and possibly add a sub at some point.

• very low latency interface that works with DP8 in 64-bit mode
• an interface that will keep very low latency on my VIs
• top notch A/D and D/A
• record and playback 48k or 96k at 24-bit
• ability to mix ITB at these resolutions with more than 24 tracks of audio
• record single vocal mic
• record single mono instrument (instrument cable and/or mic'd)
• record sound module A with stereo 1/4" outs
• record sound module B with stereo 1/4" or Optical (SPDIF), Wordclock In
• record sound module C with RCA outs, (I use RCA to XLR mogami now, it's an old analog Korg I can't part with)
• sending mono/stereo VI's out of DAW into PreAmp/outboard and back in again
• monitor the interface and the Mac Pro audio simultaneously when desired
• monitor the interface, instrument and/or mic through headphones while recording


For monitoring controls I've heard good things about Dangerous ST, grace m905, avocet, the NOS McOne / McTwo, and Gain Train but not specifically when paired with other gear in a setup like this with DP. Ditto converters and interfaces, I know the brands, not the combinations that are stable and clean with DP.

From what I have gathered, once you are spending $4k-$5k for a piece of gear, it's down to subjective preference. I'm more interested in how you've seen specific pieces of gear working together and the pros/cons and pitfalls with specific combinations.

Thanks and I hope I wasn't too lengthy. Just trying to be thorough so you have a clear idea of what I'm looking to do.

[mikehalloran]

I'd like to keep the focus in this thread on INTERFACES, CONVERTERS, and MONITORING CONTROL, not near field monitors themselves, preamp options, effects, acoustical treatments,

Good luck with that.

[HCMarkus]

Lots of questions. Here's my setup, which works great for me (and has for a number of years now) with DP7.24 and a Hex Core 3.33 Mac Pro:

INTERFACE/CONVERSION: MOTU 828mkII.
Excellent conversion and integration with DP. Google Audio Diffmaker results on the 828mkII conversion if you have heard too much naysaying from those who simply must spend more money on their interfaces. I play piano using Ivory and find the latency to be a non-issue at a buffer of 128. The i/o flexibility is great. Eight lne-level analog inputs for MIDI Synths and outboard Mic Pres. I use an eight channel Lightpipe expander from Presonus (Word Clock sync) to pick up additional mic pres so I can record multi-mic'd drums. I rarely use the built-in pres on the 828, but the MOTU's CueMix monitoring (with external Lexicon reverb - the MkII has no 'verb built in) allows me to set up multiple monitor mixes with reverb when recording.

MONITOR CONTROL: PRESONUS MONITOR STATION
Provides exactly what I neeeded in monitor and Cue control with outputs for three pairs of speakers and four strong headphone amps. Left-Right tracking is not up to the consistency of stepped attenuators, but workable for me.

I've produced multiple documentary soundtracks and independant CD projects using the gear noted. Clients love the way my recordings sound. I have loved the solid, reliable performance I have consistently received.

[BKK-OZ]

In terms of monitor control, I just bought an SM Pro MPatch v2.
Nice.

[mikehalloran]

I know the brands, not the combinations that are stable and clean with DP.

Regarding Monitor controls, not an issue as those are used post interface or Mac.

I just bought one of these to use with my new Equator D5 monitors. It is the Behringer Mini MON800. http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/MON800.aspx

Street is $70. Found mine for half that on eBay. It works great and does exactly what I want. Equator has ordered one to see if they can recommend it. One of the things that like is that I can switch between my 828mkII and Mac depending on how I am working.

[vandegraaff]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the replies. For some reason the auto email thing didn't work, I didn't know you posted.

HCMarcus
I've read some technical tests done where the 828 converters performed very well compared to higher priced units, although still not at the top of the list they ranked above some of the RME converters, at least on paper, and had less jitter. The PreAmps are pretty crap on the MOTU units though, that's from my own experience of using various units throughout the years. I owned an older 828 years ago and have a traveler now which is not great at all. In any case I would be going through a preamp first, bypassing any internal preamps.

I am looking for quality higher than the MOTU interfaces in my situation. On other forums users have suggested the Lynx Aurora, Metric Halo ULN and LIO, and Prism Orpheus and Lyra. It's amazing that some of these units lack really great outputs/connections given they are in the $2000-$5000 range (i.e. Lyra uses USB, Orpheus is Firewire 400, no PCIe or AES/EBU outputs). The Lynx was the only one with AES/EBU and a PCIe card to connect to the Mac Pro. I have a mental bias because I've been using DAWs before USB existed, and I only use USB for scanners and printing, not even external drives where I use FW800 and eSATA. The interfaces I have used in the past with the best performance with DP were from MOTU and Digidesign, all of which were PCI-based.

That being said, Lynx Aurora seems to be used widely in pro studios on major records, and the Metric Halo and Prism units get very high praise with varying degrees of latency when dealing with VIs. Problem is I have yet to hear from any DP users how this gear works for them and what other pieces that are being used for monitor control and how stability is with DP8.

michael and BKK and HCMarcus
Those monitor controls are not Class A. They are much lower end and don't give clean signals. I'm looking at things like the Crane Song Avocet and similar class of units that are built much more solid, use better components, and are proven in high-end production environments to not color the signal at all. The Presonous is definitely the better option of all of them, but others who have used Presonous and then moved to the high-end units noticed a drastic difference, and others have had some problems even with the top of the Presonous line. I personally am in the situation now where I'm not getting a perfectly clean signal and my mixes do not translate well so I will only go for a Class A monitor control.

At any rate, thanks for sharing the info guys, but I'm only looking for high-end options from A-Z. It's been so many years doing this and compromising quality at any point in the signal chain is something I refuse to do at this stage, even though it means going a la carte for a while.

[James Steele]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the replies. For some reason the auto email thing didn't work, I didn't know you posted.

Check your spam filter in case it got blocked.

[4stripes]

TMI. Someone already mentioned this, but why do you think gear combinations are going to give you trouble? It's simply not the case. DP doesn't "know" what kind of interface or monitor controller you have. All it sees is the ASIO protocol.

Also, latency is going to be an issue with DP, the OS, CPU, and the drivers, not converters. Your VI's do not know the difference between a Prism and a Benchmark. Any converter on the planet is going to be less than 5ms in-out so the converter is not the issue. Some drivers are better than others though. That's where sticking with upper end brands and PCIe will probably be better. You have to do your own research on that, the info is certainly out there. For the lowest latency possible through a DAW, you need a proprietary solution like Pro Tools HDX. So you could dump DP and get the HDX Omni that would do everything you need. Everyone else seems to get by with other things though...

Any of the pieces you've mentioned will do the job. It sounds like you have an idea what brands sit at the high end, I don't know why you lack the confidence that they will work. A monitor controller or audio interface is not going to have "stability" issues with a piece of software.

If you want a stable system with MOTU hardware, in my experience, buy a Mac. Everything else just plugs in. Sounds like you don't want MOTU hardware though, just DP. In that case, it doesn't matter at all what hardware you use. Though it's pretty easy to tell what a manufacturer leans on (RME Windows, Apogee Mac, MOTU Mac, etc).

It seems like you have very specific criteria, so I would think that would narrow it down for you automatically.

I would not buy an all-in-one device like an Orpheus if I was also going to add a sophisticated monitor controller like the Crane Song, because that'd be redundant.

If you're going with a tower might as well go PCIe for robustness. FireWire and USB never seem to stop with issues...

Maybe you just want to get an SSL Nucleus + a nice two channel ADA to strap on the digital IO and do it all in one box, depending on how many channels you need to record at once, that could work, it's a 4x4 interface, two mic pre's, inserts, SPDIF, 2x external monitor inputs. Not as full featured as a dedicated monitor like the Avocet, but pretty good for most.

Or get something like the Antelope Orion, Radar ADA, SSL Alpha-Link+MadiXtreme or MX4, Burl, Lynx--a flat IO solution, and add the monitor controller, and do all the routing for that ITB.

[vandegraaff]

Hi 4stripes

thanks for that. I asked what gear combinations because as an example, I found that one person with an Orpheus had problems when using it with something else (can't recall off-hand what it was), someone else had problems with samples rates when linking 2 Orpheus together because the firewire can't handle it. The confidence in buying such expensive pieces should be self explanatory. If I know specific units are being used for years without hiccups in a professional environment where they're being put through daily abuse, that's a plus to me. Perhaps the combinations won't matter in most cases, but since I have no personal experience, I thought asking was the safest way before shelling out thousands of dollars.

So far the Lynx is at the top of my list because it is strictly a converter and I spoke to someone who uses it at 24-bit 96k with VIs at specific buffers which handled latency fine, and they had they same Mac Pro as me with the same kinds of drives and RAM setup.

Thanks for the suggestions. I will take a look at those pieces and configs you recommended.

[mikehalloran]

Those monitor controls are not Class A

So what? Some of the best regarded are passive such as the Radial. They didn't have the functionality that I needed.

[HCMarkus]

Audio Gear purchasing decision often get into the realm of the religious. I'd say try before you buy, use your ears AND seek out objective testing. Higher price doesn't always mean better. Perceived audio quality is very subjective and transient. Results of tests that are not double blind are almost always skewed. Just sayin'.

On the other hand, some find bragging rights very useful.