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Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Discussion of Digital Performer use, optimization, tips and techniques on MacOS.

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Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby nightwatch » Tue May 29, 2012 11:20 am

Hey guys - I notice some of you are using Plogue Bidule with DP (MIDI Life Crisis). I've got a question. I'm new to using so many VIs. I'm mainly an audio guy, with some MIDI knowledge, but just now getting into large VI sessions.

I'm in a project that has maybe 30 - 50 tracks of audio (drums, guitars, basses, vocals, etc..), then I have another 20 - 30 or so tracks of MIDI and then VIs (all Kontakt with the usual libs- LASS, CS2, SAM Horns, Albion, Soniccouture, SSP, etc...)

Well, I'm at a point were DP just can't handle any more. I can't load anymore instances of Kontakt. I have the memory server on of course, and the CPU is doing ok more or less, but DP keeps giving me "out of memory" messages (related to Kontakt). DP will usually just crash. I have to restart my Mac all the time. Purging Kontakt's MS and using a memory clearing utility don't totally solve the issue. I have to restart.

I've got a single 2008 MacPro 8 core, 20GB of RAM (10GBs are still available when I get these messages).

So my question is... should I be using Plogue Bidule? Do I need another Mac to use it? Or does it run like a memory server? When DP goes 64-bit, will this not be necessary? When I run Logic in 64-bit, I have no troubles (well, it runs a lot smoother let's say).

I need to learn all this stuff, but I'm faced with a deadline and I'm scrambling. I did download Plogue Bidule, but it was a lot to deal with at the moment.

Thanks for any help.
DP 8.05 64-bit, OSX 10.9.1, MacPro (2008) 8-core 3GHz, 32GB RAM, VE Pro 5, MIR, Logic 9 (slaved), Peak, Waves 9, FabFilter, Slate Digital, Kontakt 5, iLok, Steinberg key.... and ... LASS, CS2, CineBrass and CinePerc, WIVI Winds and Brass Pro Player, Ivory American D, Albion, Soniccouture, PianoTEQ, Iris, Alchemy, MetaSynth, Aurturia V Collection, Redwirez, QL Spaces, MOTU 896HD w/Black Lion mod, Vintech and Avedis hybrid pres, Bogner guitar amps, Eden bass amps, mics, mics, mics, and more...
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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Tue May 29, 2012 11:43 am

Whether or not we will still need PB once DP is 64 bit remains an unanswered question for me until I install it on my system. Maybe the beta testers know, but they're not talking. Bastards! (j/k!)

Looks like we have the same machine with the same amount of RAM. Since moving to Snow Leopard, a Mac Pro, and adding the 20GB of RAM my VI issues have diminished, but I still need PB for larger projects.

PB works fine ITB and an external Mac is not needed. You can even run PB in 64 bit (I think that is a beta version currently) but 32 bit VIs like the Korg stuff will probably need to stay in DP. Whether or not these will run in a 64 DP is also a question, but if not the solution would be something of a reverse, where the 32 bit VIs would run in the PB shell while DP hosted the others.

Then again, I also like PB for some other features - not the least of which is running the VIs in PB and feeding both DP and Finale from the same PB troth. For projects where both are involved, that is actually very convenient.

PB can be a little cryptic to get used to. Rewire needs to be installed and setup correctly in PB, for example, but there are really a lot of features which are very nice. It's a much deeper app than just hosting VIs and the tech support is nearly immediate via their forum. "Seb" is the guru over there.

Hope that answers some of your questions. Most confusing for me was the upgrade path. You buy the app and (at least so far) the upgrades are free. If it went commercial and I had to buy it again, I would. You don't always need it, but when you do, it can really save the day.
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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby FutureLegends » Tue May 29, 2012 5:06 pm

I'm having big issues with VIs on my Mac Pro... Processor spikes and DP showing CPU at 30-70% while the Activity Monitor shows a steady 25% across all cores... Making it diffucult to get the latancy low enough (256 is the lowest I can go). Activity Monitor also shows 3-4gb of free ram men my typical projects are loaded.
I installed Bidule and was hoping that not having the VIs loaded in DP would sort out the processor spikes and allowing me to use a lower buffer setting. That didn't work... DP was acting the same way...
So for me, Bidule was just an extra hassle. The only benefit left was that I wouldn't have to reload samples between projects...
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Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Tue May 29, 2012 5:16 pm

Plogue also has limits. But it DP is maxing out and the system shows lots of CPU headroom, then hopefully you and the rest of us will benefit from the 64 update.
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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby cbergm7210 » Wed May 30, 2012 8:01 am

Bidule is great...but Rewire's limiting feature of using only one core of a machine can still cause issues in my experience.

I went to VE Pro and use it on every project, even the simple ones. DP stays lean and mean, saves are instant no matter how many VI's are in use when you Decouple the VEP instance.
Mac Pro 2.66GHz Dual Quad Core Nahalem, 16 Gigs RAM, DP 7.24, RME Fireface 800, MOTU MIDIexpress 128, Liquid Mix, Powercore PCIe, Waves, URS, PSP Audio, Mac OS 10.8.4

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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Wed May 30, 2012 8:56 am

I didn't realize that. What about using several instantiations of Bidule? Would each address a different core?
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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby cbergm7210 » Wed May 30, 2012 9:10 am

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:I didn't realize that. What about using several instantiations of Bidule? Would each address a different core?


Yes, I was in hog heaven when first using Bidule until I loaded a bunch of Amplitube instances. My RAM was looking fine but everything was choking. Talking it over with Plogue tech support, they told me that was what was happening, that the CPU was being overloaded due to the Rewire-using-only-one-core limitation. It was disappointing to say the least.

I may be wrong, but I think only one instance of Bidule can be loaded via Rewire from what I remember...
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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby nightwatch » Wed May 30, 2012 12:15 pm

So, MIDI Life Crisis - You're saying I can host my VIs in Bidule (the important VIs I'm running at the moment are all 64bit - Kontakt, Reaktor, WIVI, Aurturia, PianoTEQ), and keep my 32 bit Waves PIs in DP, and that will save some of DP memory needs.But, 64DP, on a single Mac might make that redundant. Gotcha.

Oh, btw, what was the most helpful resource for setting Bidule up? The Plogue website and forums?

FutureLegends - You say it didn't really help with DPs performance. The spiking in DP is ridiculous. I'm sure that the OS puts some sort of cap on how much CPU resource any app can have, obviously because all of the processes need to share. I keep my Acticity Monitor open too at all times and keep track of details, and that seems logical to me.

I don't know how many of you do this, but I may create a new user account for DP use. I don't have another hard drive to run DP off of yet, but perhaps I can cut back on some resources by having another account (maybe this has been discussed elsewhere).

I think that perhaps 64-bit DP will solve a lot of issues. (Like I said Logic in 64bit runs fine, but i haven't tested that against 32bit Logic - although I did look at the Activity Monitor and it was nice to see Logic using 10GB of RAM without any memory server). Once DP starts getting strained near the 4GB limit, (regardless of how many Kontakt Mem Servers are loaded, and even if the CPU and Free RAM are not being used up), DP doesn't like it and quits.

Even when DP goes 64 I still might need to get into Bidule because I want to start using multiple Macs, and multiple programs. Ultimately I'd like to have DP or Logic, and Sibelius or Finale on one Mac for MIDI only, then DP on another Mac for audio, and then another Mac of VI hosting. Jeez, that's a lot of money...

Anyway, I guess for now, I'll just have to work more efficiently. Thanks for all the replies.
DP 8.05 64-bit, OSX 10.9.1, MacPro (2008) 8-core 3GHz, 32GB RAM, VE Pro 5, MIR, Logic 9 (slaved), Peak, Waves 9, FabFilter, Slate Digital, Kontakt 5, iLok, Steinberg key.... and ... LASS, CS2, CineBrass and CinePerc, WIVI Winds and Brass Pro Player, Ivory American D, Albion, Soniccouture, PianoTEQ, Iris, Alchemy, MetaSynth, Aurturia V Collection, Redwirez, QL Spaces, MOTU 896HD w/Black Lion mod, Vintech and Avedis hybrid pres, Bogner guitar amps, Eden bass amps, mics, mics, mics, and more...
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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby nightwatch » Wed May 30, 2012 12:21 pm

cbergm7210 wrote:
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:I didn't realize that. What about using several instantiations of Bidule? Would each address a different core?


Yes, I was in hog heaven when first using Bidule until I loaded a bunch of Amplitube instances. My RAM was looking fine but everything was choking. Talking it over with Plogue tech support, they told me that was what was happening, that the CPU was being overloaded due to the Rewire-using-only-one-core limitation. It was disappointing to say the least.

I may be wrong, but I think only one instance of Bidule can be loaded via Rewire from what I remember...


It's kinda strange that we're at a point where technology isn't quite solving the problem we're having, unless one throws a lot of money at it and starts buying multiple machines. Not that that's a new thing, but still, would be great to have a good software solution that's fully optimized for today's hardware. I guess that's difficult too as today's hardware is changing fast, i,e,. if you're a Mac user nobody knows the future of the multiprocessor Macs. What a drag. I saw an interview with Tim Cook today. He said he's "doubling-down" on Apple secrecy. Great :roll:
DP 8.05 64-bit, OSX 10.9.1, MacPro (2008) 8-core 3GHz, 32GB RAM, VE Pro 5, MIR, Logic 9 (slaved), Peak, Waves 9, FabFilter, Slate Digital, Kontakt 5, iLok, Steinberg key.... and ... LASS, CS2, CineBrass and CinePerc, WIVI Winds and Brass Pro Player, Ivory American D, Albion, Soniccouture, PianoTEQ, Iris, Alchemy, MetaSynth, Aurturia V Collection, Redwirez, QL Spaces, MOTU 896HD w/Black Lion mod, Vintech and Avedis hybrid pres, Bogner guitar amps, Eden bass amps, mics, mics, mics, and more...
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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Wed May 30, 2012 1:05 pm

nightwatch wrote:So, MIDI Life Crisis - You're saying I can host my VIs in Bidule..


No need to be formal, call me MLC, please, butt yes, that's what I'm saying. I don't have Waves to comment on that and very much look forward to DP 8 to see where all that shakes out.

nightwatch wrote:It's kinda strange that we're at a point where technology isn't quite solving the problem we're having, unless one throws a lot of money at it and starts buying multiple machines.


Technology IS the problem. The better the VIs get (and some are getting pretty damn good) the more memory and CPU they will consume. If you want to keep up with that, you gotta do what you gotta do - especially to stay competitive. The basic promise of MIDI and synths was fulfilled long ago, but now we want realism, and we can get it, but yes, it does cost us in gold and it costs us in time in that it takes a lot of time to be technically savvy.

It's not for everyone - and for those who can't keep up, it can be a very bad thing. For those that can, well... they have the edge, at least in terms of what they can technically produce.

In the end, art wins, or at least it should. Good music is good music, even played on a less than stellar instrument. For myself, I make the best of every tool I have and tithe my studio with at least 20% of any profits. More and more, that is going to increased speed and memory as I add more intensive instruments. It's just the way it is and we just have to suck it in.
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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby nightwatch » Wed May 30, 2012 3:46 pm

It's hard to say what wins. But at least if one has some kind of vision and pursues it till finish, that's a win right there, IMHO.
DP 8.05 64-bit, OSX 10.9.1, MacPro (2008) 8-core 3GHz, 32GB RAM, VE Pro 5, MIR, Logic 9 (slaved), Peak, Waves 9, FabFilter, Slate Digital, Kontakt 5, iLok, Steinberg key.... and ... LASS, CS2, CineBrass and CinePerc, WIVI Winds and Brass Pro Player, Ivory American D, Albion, Soniccouture, PianoTEQ, Iris, Alchemy, MetaSynth, Aurturia V Collection, Redwirez, QL Spaces, MOTU 896HD w/Black Lion mod, Vintech and Avedis hybrid pres, Bogner guitar amps, Eden bass amps, mics, mics, mics, and more...
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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Wed May 30, 2012 3:50 pm

Absolutely. To thine own self be true! Anything less is a loss.
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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby mikehalloran » Wed May 30, 2012 4:09 pm

Remember: For most of us, our entire investment in hardware and software is le$$ than one studio session with an orchestra.
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Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Wed May 30, 2012 4:19 pm

That's when you work on somebody else's dime.
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Re: Plogue Bidule with DP.. Do I need it?

Postby timmeh » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:06 pm

As someone above stated use VE PRO, in my experience it is substantially better than Bidule and keeps DP lean and mean. I have huge templates using this software and I've never had it crash.
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