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Apple Releases Mountain Lion

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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby Frodo » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:19 pm

kgdrum wrote:I agree Michael but I don't think we've seen this kind of mass resistance to upgrading an OS for a long time, if ever.


I don't think I've ever seen an extended period in which developers were so cautious with their updates.
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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby Michael Canavan » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:49 pm

Is everybody forgetting OS9 to OSX and PPC to Universal Binary??????

Seriously, this is nothing compared. :shock:
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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:09 pm

I don't agree. Even the switch from OS 9 wasn't that hard to digest and OS X was a vast improvement. Lion is a dumbing down in many ways. I like to think I'm smarter than that.
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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby HCMarkus » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:39 am

I have to agree with Mr. Canavan on this one... Macs that ran great under OS9 were dog slow under that first, interesting but troublesome version of OSX, and there were few apps initially available. I remember being pretty darn happy with my Dual G4, SCSI drives and all, with OS9 and DP3 as my then-teenage son was suffering the slings and arrows of early OSX adoption on his machine.

That's when I stopped worrying whether my OS was the latest, 'cause the latest ain't always the greatest.

I do a lot of things with my Macs, but the one thing that is non-negotiable is a solid, trouble-free partition bearing a throughly-tested combination of OS and DP. When I buy a new machine, I'll have to suss it all out, but from that point forward, I will resist mightily incremental updates that haven't been severely vetted first. Is it a tool, or a toy? OK, a little of both, but I don't have time to waste on unproductive unnecessary upgrades.

So, I'm still running a trouble-free Tiger/DP7.21 combination on my PPC Quad G5, but eagerly looking forward to the 2012 Mac Pro release, coming (we hope) soon, followed by a period of profound joy mingled with occasional epic sadness.
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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby Frodo » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:53 am

A lot of it depends on when one had to update. The OS9 to OSX transition *was* a rough one, but for me it was not as rough as this current transition.

I got next to nothing accomplished in Leopard because the third party developers I needed didn't really get caught up before Snow Leopard was released. Because Leopard was released in 2007, it's been an agonizing 5 years getting to 10.6.8 where things finally settled down. What complicates it further for me is that I never braved Lion, and now that Mountain Lion is on the horizon I'm willing to be two OS's behind just to monitor where developers are with their wares in terms of compatibility.

At least with OSX there was less hesitation to upgrade through all the "cats": Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Panther, and Tiger. We got to Leopard, and Rosetta may or may not have helped. We get to Snow Leopard only to find road blocks of a completely different sort.

That was partially due to the fact that Carbon frameworks were being set aside. Snow Leopard was a bigger game-changer (for me) because it orphaned all PPCs rather than the customary few older models. It also semi-orphaned a few Intels where full compatibility was concerned. Even my Core 2 v3,1 laptop won't boot in 64-bit mode when Apple asserted that it would. My *then* year-old MacPro missed the cut entirely.

At least the developers (whose software I've had to use) made if from Cheetah (or the Kodiak Beta) through Tiger, however bumpy it was. With Snow Leopard, things went from YMMV to "forgeddaboudit".
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Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby bad andy » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:12 am

Hey didn't Snow Leopard get released similarly'close' to the release of Leopard? By the time Mt. Lion hits it will be at least a year between releases.

You know you have to either roll with it and adapt, or just stick with your older tested stuff until the newer versions stabilize. Early adopters will generally accept, and be willing pay this price. If as an early adopter you feel you shouldn't have to - that is being ignorant.

Who cares if the OS is "dumbed down"? How technical do you want it? If you want it technical go to win or linux. The main point of (us) having a computer is to run DP. As long as DP runs well and I can write my music, I'm cool.
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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:24 am

bad andy wrote:dumbed down"? How technical do you want it?



Technical enough so that when something goes wrong, it can be fixed. Remember when you could fix your own car? (I didn't think so...) ☺ Yes, cars are much better now, and much more expensive to get repaired. I actually liked setting timing and adjusting the carb.

One size does not fit all - especially us over 50 guys... ;)
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Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby bad andy » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:36 am

It can still be fixed. The underlying tech is still there just hidden from the user (Lion Library folder? - which is easily reverted) for the sake of making the user experience and GUI slicker, and easier. Terminal is still your friend and the unix core of the OS still has everything. I am a Mac consultant in the side and have actually found some of Lion's "improvements" to be beneficial from a troubleshooting standpoint. (recovery partition, apple ID user password control, etc.) Apple's goal is to make the OS more streamlined and efficient for the user to accomplish their daily tasks. Power Users may resist this because on the surface it appears you can't do things you used to, but to be honest I think it's all still there, you may just have to look a bit for it.

I'm old enough to remember fixing cars, by the way.
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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby Guitar Gaz » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:48 am

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
bad andy wrote:dumbed down"? How technical do you want it?



Technical enough so that when something goes wrong, it can be fixed. Remember when you could fix your own car? (I didn't think so...) ☺ Yes, cars are much better now, and much more expensive to get repaired. I actually liked setting timing and adjusting the carb.

One size does not fit all - especially us over 50 guys... ;)


I agree with that for sure!
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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:15 am

OK, so we can agree on one thing... we're all old enough to drive :) There is another thing. Just because a company has been great in the past in terms of ergonomic design, when what they call ergonomic and what I can ergonomic collide, I don't feel any obligation to continue supporting that product.

Let's look at this another way. My wife and I used to love going to a particular restaurant in Burbank that will remain unnamed (Market City). What we loved about it was you could go in and ask for special ingredients to not be included in certain dishes. She is allergic to shellfish, but a particular menu item only came with shrimp. They would always cook it sans shrimp until one day a new manager took over. For whatever reason, they flatly refused to make the dish unless it had shrimp in it. Maybe it was pre-mixed, but frankly, we didn't care. They apparently cared more about the prep than the customer. They have not gotten another dime from us.

I'm feeling a little like that about Apple at the moment. They and other high tech companies are so used to "defining" technology in a vacuum that it really doesn't matter what the end user experiences as long as the company is efficient and making a large profit (see slave labor in China making Apple products in the news). MOTU sort of did this with the DP 6 GUI but than DP 7 reversed that based on customer demand (one presumes).

Apple has way too many customers to do such a thing, leaving them to make the decisions on how the products will look and work. So here's my bottom line:

I don't like the way the product looks or works. I like the current OS in my system and I'm sticking to it until I need to upgrade for some reason (I don't foresee that in a few years at the very least).

I DON'T LIKE THE LIONS!

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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby daniel.sneed » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:25 am

bongo_x wrote:[...]If you use Mail, hold you cursor over the link before you click it. A little bubble will pop up telling you where the link goes. If it doesn’t say what it’s supposed to then don’t click it. bb
Please, do what bongo says!
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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby HCMarkus » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:44 pm

Frodo wrote:A lot of it depends on when one had to update. The OS9 to OSX transition *was* a rough one, but for me it was not as rough as this current transition.

I got next to nothing accomplished in Leopard because the third party developers I needed didn't really get caught up before Snow Leopard was released. Because Leopard was released in 2007, it's been an agonizing 5 years getting to 10.6.8 where things finally settled down.

If I had a current Mac Pro, I'd probably be sitting out the Lions on a cozy Snow Leopard blanket, until I was absolutely certain the early adopters had thoroughly tested the big cats out. My suggestion is, do what I've been doing for years with my Quad G5: Dual boot partitions, so you can have that stalwart OS ready to rock, but you can also play with the latest OS when doing non-critical stuff, like email and web surfing or when an application you want to try requires it.

I can see both sides of the UI simplification issue. As long as the functions are still available, locked somewhere under the hood, not having to see 'em is usually fine, and actually a pleasure. But, what if you forget the hood lock combination? I spend as little time as possible managing my OS, so the trips under the hood are (hopefully) few and far between. Like any task that must be performed only on rare occasion, if the answer requires finding, unlocking, and opening hidden doors, the task may never be successfully completed.
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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby Michael Canavan » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:52 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:I don't agree. Even the switch from OS 9 wasn't that hard to digest and OS X was a vast improvement. Lion is a dumbing down in many ways. I like to think I'm smarter than that.

I wasn't talking about you're opinion on the OS, but on adoption rates by developers and end users. Developers are not in any way being slower to adopt Lion or Mountain Lion than they were to port to OSX or Intel. We end users might not like the look and UI of the OS, but it's not the same level of pain on their side. :)

I'm mostly still concerned with whether or not Apple will ditch Mac Pro's altogether or not? Not sure that the iOS-ing of OSX is an indicator, but the stagnation of the Mac Pro line is. :(
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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:05 pm

Well I was also "waiting to buy a new Mac Pro "when they came out" and caved last September thinking they'd be out by the Spring. Then I started thinking about Lion and software compatibility and getting a Mac that was "made for" SL seem somewhat more important.
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Re: Apple Releases Mountain Lion

Postby Michael Canavan » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:34 pm

Well I'm currently broke, but the main reason I want the Mac Pro line to stay afloat and the new line to come out is because there will be a literal dumping of used Mac Pros on the market when they ship the update! So I'll be able to get a nice 2009 or above machine for less than the price of a Macbook Pro. The downside is them discontinuing the line and the current used market goes up. In any case I'm looking for five times the power of the Macbook Pro I'm on now, future proofing my needs for at least another five years.
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