Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Really.

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Shooshie
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Shooshie »

Prime Mover wrote:WOW! I just read the L3 manual, one of the most FASCINATING reads on mastering and sample bitrate conversion I've ever read!

http://www.waves.com/manuals/plugins/L3.pdf

It basically goes into a lot of the same things about dithering, normalization and sample conversion that Bob Katz does, but honestly, whoever wrote this explained it a lot more cleanly than Katz does. I was kinda befuddled by some of the explanations in Mastering Audio, this clears things up.
Yeah, they present it in a less theoretical way, and more practical, with a focus on the tools at hand -- in this case the L3 Multimaximizer. Waves manuals have always offered little select tidbits of prized info, but some of those bits of knowledge from the old Waves manuals from way over a decade ago left me with serious questions that were not answered in the manuals or anywhere else that I could find. The most serious question raised by past manuals was the issue of double-dithering:
What do you do when you know that the audio you're about to commit to a 2-track mix or master is very likely to be further processed later by TV, radio, or even by a mastering engineer?
When I first became aware of this conundrum, we were about to send some material to Bernie Grundman, so I got him on the phone and asked him. I might as well have been speaking Greek. Bernie didn't seem to have any idea what I was talking about. Suddenly it became apparent that Bernie and most other mastering engineers were analog guys, and that this digital stuff was still so new that there was going to be a lot of misunderstanding, if not outright mistakes, even by the top professionals in the industry. (this was in the 1990s)

I let go of it then, and let things fall where they may. That resulted in at least one mastering job that had to be done over, because it was so full of clipping that the engineer could not remove it all. (that didn't happen with Bernie, btw) It was free of clipping when it left my studio, so it had something to do with dithering, noise shaping, or rate conversions. But what was one to do? You couldn't just burn a file to 2-track without limiting and dithering it.

The L3 Multimaximizer manual actually deals with this. In several spots it gives hints or outright instructions on how to prepare files that will be re-processed later. If you focus on pages 16 - 26 of the manual, you will find most of that.

Here is one example of it:
Waves L3 Manual page 20 wrote:For 16-bit applications, Ultra shaping should be avoided in the following situations:
Subsequent Digital Editing When a signal is subjected to later editing, extreme Noise Shaping might, in rare cases, cause low-level, yet audible "clicks" at the edit points. This might occur when played on low quality CD players.
Applications in which you should avoid use of Ultra shaping include CD's with production music, sound effects libraries, or loop libraries. These would certainly be subject to further digital editing.

Poor Error Correction When errors that are not properly corrected occur, the Ultra setting (like all forms of heavy Noise Shaping and other resolution enhancement technologies) tends to cause audible background crackles, especially on very cheap CD players. While these effects generally don't occur on the majority of mid- or hi-fi CD players, they can be noticeable on very cheap products. The amount of such crackles on poor pressings is greatly reduced by the Normal Noise Shaping. An example would be a signal destined for a carrier medium with poor error correction, such as CDs pressed in pressing plants with poor quality control.

Subsequent equalization before duplication, when heavy treble boost equalization is subsequently employed. (We're referring to EQ by a pre- mastering person before duplication, not when the end user boosts the treble on their home system!) This can cause the strongly boosted higher frequencies used by Ultra Noise Shaping to become so high in level that they might feed excessive noise energy into loudspeakers. Therefore, Ultra shaping is best avoided in situations where subsequent equalization may be used in pre-mastering, such as in a compilation. Of course, if the mastering is done correctly the first time, large treble boosts would be quite unnecessary. Please note that much less HF Gain is used with the Normal and Moderate noise shapers than with Ultra (all of which could be observed on a real-time analyzer, such as Waves PAZ - Psychoacoustic Analyzer).
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Shooshie »

Armageddon wrote:Shoosh, if you already have it as part of a Waves' package, I just recommend using the L3-LL Multimaximizer instead. Less CPU-intensive and will give you the same results, feels a bit more analog, too. I generally avoid multiband compression or limiting in mastering -- I feel like the line between their job and the mastering EQ's job gets very blurry, at that point -- but I've been pleasantly surprised with L3-LL Multimaximizer.

I generally DO use the LL version, as it requires less CPU overhead and latency. I need to find out, though, whether the LL version also means that it's not a linear-phase device. The regular L3 Multimaximer -- when set for Type 1 dither and "Normal" noise shaping -- is a linear-phase plugin. It would be useful to know if that applies to the LL as well, and if so, with what settings. My guess is that no, it's not a linear-phase device, because that's probably what causes the CPU hit in the L3-MM, but I have not read anything to confirm this. (or I have read it and forgotten it, which is probably the case)


Shooshie
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Tobor »

This thread is great and very informative (albeit expensive, as I've had to buy a ton of Waves plugins during the sale that....might....be over soon).

Since this is kind of a thread about the latest Waves plugs, I'd love to get your impression of the Kramer Master Tape plug, Shoosh. There are a couple settings I've loved on mixes when inserted right before the L3, like 'Smooth and Clear Compression' or something like that, low input and high output at 15ips. Think Bob Ohlsson had some significant input on this plug.

Try it, you'll like it!!

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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Prime Mover »

Crap, I was already to dive in last night, and tried installing things on my iLok. Problem is, somehow the iLok website isn't recognizing that I have the iLok software and drivers installed, so I can't add the new Waves licenses! I know the iLok works fine and my drivers are okay because PLAY recognizes the iLok, just not the iLok website itself. I emailed iLok tech support, but they're out until after New Years... so I may be stuck not being able to play with these new plugs until then :( Oh well, maybe for the best anyway, I have a lot of work (and practicing) that I need to focus on in other areas. But this sucks, after all my research and anticipation yesterday, I can't use it!
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by labman »

Shooshie wrote: I generally DO use the LL version, as it requires less CPU overhead and latency. I need to find out, though, whether the LL version also means that it's not a linear-phase device.
Shooshie

Shooshie. I asked that very question a few years back. Here is what I was told. Hope it helps.

LL = Low Latency. No look-ahead processing.

The "LL" version has a much lower CPU hit and latency. It also doesn't
sound nearly as good. (from Barry WOod)
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Shooshie »

Tobor wrote:Since this is kind of a thread about the latest Waves plugs, I'd love to get your impression of the Kramer Master Tape plug, Shoosh.
I don't think I have that one. If I do, then I haven't tried it. Tell us if it's a must-have!

Shoosh
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Shooshie »

labman wrote:LL = Low Latency. No look-ahead processing.

The "LL" version has a much lower CPU hit and latency. It also doesn't
sound nearly as good. (from Barry Wood)
That's what I figured. I mean, if it were everything that the other one is, AND low latency, then they wouldn't bother to offer the other one. "OH, and here's our high-latency version, which offers an 80ms delay, for no extra charge!"

Still, the L3-LL is a great plugin, and you can typically substitute it until you're ready for the final bounce.
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Tobor »

Shooshie wrote:
Tobor wrote:Since this is kind of a thread about the latest Waves plugs, I'd love to get your impression of the Kramer Master Tape plug, Shoosh.
I don't think I have that one. If I do, then I haven't tried it. Tell us if it's a must-have!

Shoosh
It's also part of the Tapes, Tubes, and Transistors bundle, but the scuttle is that Master Tape is the star of the show, so I bought it solo. Here's some Sweetwater reviews:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ ... at/reviews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I really do like it, if you've got a voucher left at the sale price it really is a no brainer. Try the demo and a couple of the presets and you'll get the idea pretty quickly. I would think you'd be all over it!

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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by KarlSutton »

Shooshie wrote: Cool, Stephen! Say, 2000 was when I first got the C4, too. This whole plugin thing seemed still new then, and the things I was able to accomplish with the C4 would boggle the minds of my fellow audio engineers in Las Vegas at the time.
Shooshie
How did our paths not cross during this time? I was working in Vegas pretty actively in the audio community from 1990-2005. Who were some of the guys you knew?

Regarding multiband - I think I was one of the first guys in Vegas to get a Finalizer - that was fun!
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Dan Worley »

Prime Mover wrote:Crap, I was already to dive in last night, and tried installing things on my iLok. Problem is, somehow the iLok website isn't recognizing that I have the iLok software and drivers installed, so I can't add the new Waves licenses! I know the iLok works fine and my drivers are okay because PLAY recognizes the iLok, just not the iLok website itself. I emailed iLok tech support, but they're out until after New Years... so I may be stuck not being able to play with these new plugs until then :( Oh well, maybe for the best anyway, I have a lot of work (and practicing) that I need to focus on in other areas. But this sucks, after all my research and anticipation yesterday, I can't use it!
May not have anything to do with it, but unless they fixed it recently (which I doubt), the iLok site doesn't work with newer versions Firefox. I always forget that and have to switch over to Safari.

And uh, how can a company like iLok be completely on holiday and unmanned at any time? They should always be ready to deal with technical troubles. That's part of the iLok deal, isn't it?
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by Shooshie »

KarlSutton wrote:
Shooshie wrote: Cool, Stephen! Say, 2000 was when I first got the C4, too. This whole plugin thing seemed still new then, and the things I was able to accomplish with the C4 would boggle the minds of my fellow audio engineers in Las Vegas at the time.
Shooshie
How did our paths not cross during this time? I was working in Vegas pretty actively in the audio community from 1990-2005. Who were some of the guys you knew?
I was good friends with Mark Dennis, along about the time that he was dating Kersti, his wife-to-be. I was also pretty good friends with Jean François Brissette, and the other JF (Bergeron?), who was directing Mystere, and moved to the O show later. There were a number of people involved with Cirque who I got to know to some degree, mostly through Mark Dennis and his great parties out at his house, but also because many of them would come by the Petrossian Lounge and hang out with us there. That was where Ariel played, nightly. It was one of those legendary times and places that you never think of as legendary until you look back on it and realize that's exactly what was going on.

Karl, your name is VERY familiar to me. I don't know if it was because we met in LV, or if it's just from the forum, but I could swear that I met you somewhere.

Shooshie
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Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Really.

Post by kgdrum »

Dan Worley wrote:
Prime Mover wrote:Crap, I was already to dive in last night, and tried installing things on my iLok. Problem is, somehow the iLok website isn't recognizing that I have the iLok software and drivers installed, so I can't add the new Waves licenses! I know the iLok works fine and my drivers are okay because PLAY recognizes the iLok, just not the iLok website itself. I emailed iLok tech support, but they're out until after New Years... so I may be stuck not being able to play with these new plugs until then :( Oh well, maybe for the best anyway, I have a lot of work (and practicing) that I need to focus on in other areas. But this sucks, after all my research and anticipation yesterday, I can't use it!
May not have anything to do with it, but unless they fixed it recently (which I doubt), the iLok site doesn't work with newer versions Firefox. I always forget that and have to switch over to Safari.

And uh, how can a company like iLok be completely on holiday and unmanned at any time? They should always be ready to deal with technical troubles. That's part of the iLok deal, isn't it?
+1 I also could not get ilok auth in Firefox, as soon as I switched to Safari, the ilok did it's thing.
It's pretty weird that ilok is so browser sensitive.
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Re: Waves L3-16 Multimaximizer. Where are the 16 bands? Real

Post by KarlSutton »

Shooshie wrote:
KarlSutton wrote:
Shooshie wrote: Cool, Stephen! Say, 2000 was when I first got the C4, too. This whole plugin thing seemed still new then, and the things I was able to accomplish with the C4 would boggle the minds of my fellow audio engineers in Las Vegas at the time.
Shooshie
How did our paths not cross during this time? I was working in Vegas pretty actively in the audio community from 1990-2005. Who were some of the guys you knew?
I was good friends with Mark Dennis, along about the time that he was dating Kersti, his wife-to-be. I was also pretty good friends with Jean François Brissette, and the other JF (Bergeron?), who was directing Mystere, and moved to the O show later. There were a number of people involved with Cirque who I got to know to some degree, mostly through Mark Dennis and his great parties out at his house, but also because many of them would come by the Petrossian Lounge and hang out with us there. That was where Ariel played, nightly. It was one of those legendary times and places that you never think of as legendary until you look back on it and realize that's exactly what was going on.

Karl, your name is VERY familiar to me. I don't know if it was because we met in LV, or if it's just from the forum, but I could swear that I met you somewhere.

Shooshie
I was in a different circle of audio - post production & some album work (worked on the Mystere soundtrack) I started at Oakdale & then moved to Post Digital & then to Studio Center. I also freelanced at T-Bone's Son Songs. We may have run into each other. Vegas definitely had some interesting work back then.
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