Score Order for different genres and ensemble sizes?

[mhschmieder]

Does anyone know if there are one or more accepted traditions for score order in different genres? Orchestral tradition is very well established and is in agreement in almost every source that I look at. But I see inconsistencies in other contexts so am not sure if there are any accepted norms.

Between my on-line searches, various textbooks and score examples, the "most likely standards" that I came across are the templates in Notion (notation program).

Strangely, they put the bass after the drum set, when it's a Jazz Combo, but in no other context. They generally put piano/keys ahead of guitars (of course, for orchestral scores the keys come after the drums and percussion), and this is the area where I see the most inconsistency across sources, but I tend to believe a notation program has done their homework thoroughly as their clients are working composers, conductors, and publishers.

Horns consistently are on top, in any context, so there are no surprises there. It's mostly the relative position of keyboards (as a group -- I know the correct order within that category), lead guitar, rhythm guitar (are they split or together?), bass, and drums, that I'm not sure is "settled" or even has common traditions for each genre and ensemble size.

Finally, there's the question of strings, which do not come up in anything I looked at. I have been putting them at the bottom of the score, regardless of genre or ensemble size. Does anyone know if this is correct?

For instance, in Broadway scoring, which usually includes elements of classical, jazz, rock, and other genres and instrumentation, does one follow mostly orchestral scoring traditions and simply insert the "non-traditional" instruments ahead of the drum set and after the winds? What happens with stuff like mandolin (e.g.)?

Just to be clear, I have no doubt about the relative order of percussion instruments, chromatic percussion, keyboards, string sections, brass, woodwinds, etc. I'm simply not sure about whether there is a tradition for where to put the strings outside of classical music, and what order to group keyboards vs. guitar (and to a lesser extent, the issue of bass following drums in a Jazz Combo chart).

Notion provides score templates for Big Band, Jazz Combo (the biggest oddity), Rock Band, Percussion Ensemble, Chamber Orchestra, String Orchestra, Full Orchestra, Wind Ensemble, and a few other related groupings. I would think reggae/ska and funk would more or less follow Big Band traditions but simply with fewer instruments. And my guess is that Broadway more closely matches Orchestral scoring than anything else.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

FWIW, I tend to follow the classical orchestra convention in all instances as the conductors are generally classically trained and expect certain things in certain places.

BTW, woodwinds go above the brass in orchestral scores. Really.

[mhschmieder]

Thanks; that's what I figured, and for the same reason you mentioned.

Sorry for the confusion about "Horns" as I was using the terminology in the pop sense in that particular statement, where "Horns" means ALL winds (woodwinds plus brass).

Of course, ACTUAL horns DO go at the top of the BRASS section (which of course follows the Woodwinds section, regardless of genre). Partly because they tend to take a lead role, but also because they were the first (other brass got added to the orchestra later). I was surprised to read a history of the orchestra that showed how much of the notation score order is based on when the instrument first got introduced into typical orchestras!

So, looks like I've been doing it right; following orchestral tradition for the most part (an exception being that keyboards go above the drums/percussion/bass in music that uses NO orchestral instruments and which thus will never be conducted but still needs lead sheets).

As for synths, I finally decided that since they're the modern equivalent of organs, they should go right after the organ at the last of the keyboards section, but then be subdivided according to orchestra score order in terms of what they most closely can be categorized as.

An exception would be sound effects, which I put in a category by itself regardless of whether a sample, mechanism, or synth is being used to evoke the sound (e.g. wind). And I put these at the end of the score par orchestral scoring tradition.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Actually, sound effects are traditionally handled by the percussionists and should be placed in the percussion section. Just an FYI. I'm sure some other members here can contribute to this but it is Sunday and Mother's Day for some and just H-Day for others (Hangover Day). I prefer my hangovers on Mondays when nobody else is around... oooop! o/t again!

BTW, speaking of horns - you DO know the difference between a bull and an orchestra?

[mhschmieder]

I've seen both traditions for sound effects, and I'm wondering if that is because in modern composed music the sound effects are often triggered from a Kurzweil K2600?

This was really the only area (aside from some regional differences over the placement of some of the minor wind instruments), where I found different instructions from different sources.

The most authoritative sources do seem to indicate embedding sound effects in the auxiliary percussion section of the score. But what about stuff such as marching feet, and other effects that don't tend to have oddball inventions (like the bull roarer e.g.) and thus must be triggered?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Good point! Of course if the keyboard player does the sfx they should be in that part.

[mhschmieder]

Thanks for all the help. We're hoping to move from my mock-ups to live musicians at the stage show by end of year (if we can move into a big enough venue that has a pit or equivalent), so I want to get into good habits now, set up DP templates, etc., that get me working in a consistent way that is in line with whatever "real notation" I'll need to produce (after exporting MIDI from DP to a dedicated notation program, where of course I'll tweak for proper markings, correct staff, etc.).

[MIDI Life Crisis]

A pleasure. My favorite subject... coming up with melodies, and harmonies, and rhythms is easy. Doing great arranging and orchestration is where you put the meat on the bones.

[mikehalloran]

I have never conducted a Broadway type show from anything other than an augmented piano reduction.

If that is where you are heading, I would take a look at a dozen or so to get a feel for what goes on with these. Although some are engraved, most are hand-copied and photostats.

There are a few shows where you can buy engraved versions of the hand written conductor's score. Rogers and Hammerstein and The Music Man come to mind. I was surprised to see the piano book with all the conductor's markings and cues - just smaller.

I have a small library of conductors scores and could send a few pages so you could get an idea of the layout.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I agree Mike. I've conducted a fair number of B'way style shows and the publishers always provide the same score for the rehearsal piano as they provide to the conductor with written indications of what instruments play which cues. Drives me crazy in rehearsals.

However, there is certainly a master score that the reduction was made from and I suspect that is where the question is coming from. My own (original) scores for theater are always in standard classical format, but even working with the Chicago Symphony the conductor requested a piano reduction for the performance and a full score for preparation and rehearsals. Piano reductions offer less page turns, less to look at and easier cueing, but don't help much when a musician asks if he should be playing a a Bb or a B natural and the conductor's piano reduction doesn't have all the parts.

[mhschmieder]

That's good info -- thanks a lot. It's a ways out before I get to this stage with the scoring, so this is enough info to make decisions on the master "score" in DP. Very helpful.

I might make a suggestion to Notion to introduce a Broadway template to their scores, or even a tutorial. They do try to provide real world tutorials for any number of contexts, and pit musicians are their MAIN audience (vs. publishers).

[mhschmieder]

I have partially returned to these questions while finalizing a large jazz combo (not quite a Big Band) production today, and found several sources that concur with a score order I had located a month or two back, so I think there must be a concensus:

http://lifeintheband.wordpress.com/2011 ... and-vocal/

NOTE: This link works, but isn't recognized as a valid URL by the forum's formatter, so you'll have to cut and paste the address above.

I found numerous other references and professional score examples that precisely follow that listing to the "T". The only oddity was an example score that put synthesizers above acoustic piano. I would think they should go below, as organ goes below and synthesizers are the next generation of organs in terms of their myriad roles emulating different sounds.

Also, I was correct earlier in concluding that it is legitimate and preferred to refer to all of the winds in such as setting as the "Horn Section" (including flutes and clarinets, if present).

So, unless a production really uses more of the full orchestra (such as strings), I will follow this score order, which primarily differs from an Orchestral score in where plucked instruments (e.g. guitar, banjo or mandolin) and keyboards present themselves ahead of the drum set (as does the bass).

Smaller jazz combos tend to place the bass below the drum set at the bottom of the score, from most examples that I see, but as I rarely write for such a traditional combo vs. a slightly more expanded instrumentation, I'm not ready to fret over that decision yet.

I found an EXCELLENT detailed orchestral score order listing from my alma mater (Indiana University) today as well. I might have found it earlier, but can't find that printout now so am not sure if this is the same one, but here's the link:

http://library.music.indiana.edu/tech_s ... order.html

I have particularly been interested in the specifics of oddball percussion and sound effects, as I use them so frequently in my scores. This helps resolve those questions further (alongside some interesting categorizations of percussion that I came across a few weeks ago but probably forgot to link here).

[MIDI Life Crisis]

As far as the link, drop everything past the numbers, such as:

http://lifeintheband.wordpress.com/2011/05/28/0024" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (so it appears as a link automatically) or so you can do this.

I'm not sure how that works, but if i have a problem with a link that appears to indicate folders with a / usually the first character that appears after the dated folder is the one to start deleting from. Just an FYI.

Back, o/t...

I can only speak from my own perspective, but I always use orchestral order except when conducting from the piano, in which case i always want my part to be on the bottom for easy site.

Again, sound effects are generally handled by the percussionists, so the notation should appear there. The exception being if they are generated by a sampler or synth or other keyboard player. Then they go in that part. I have a few scores where I have various players who are available at the time to play the sfx play them, so they might be in the violin part, of the bass clarinet part, or wherever. Again, it gets down to who is playing them, but as a rule in acoustic orchestral scores, it is the percussionist.

There! Now I've upped my post count by one again...