backing tracks & click track

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:35 pm

Anybody using DP to create some backing tracks for a live show? Background vocals/keyboard parts/and auxilliary percussion with a click track sent to drummer.

1) How do you sent the click to the drummer and nobody else?

2) Do you recommend running tracks from computer? Or recording tracks then Playing back from CD player or MP3 player?

KCobby · Post by **KCobby** » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:48 pm

Hi Brian,

I can help a bit with the click - I've used DP many times with click and depending on what kind of music you're doing, I think it works quite well. I'm assuming you have an audio interface that will let you have multiple outputs. (I use the MOTU ultra-lite personally)

In the "Click Preferences" - you'll see how to assign the click to a different output. I assigned it to headphones and used that. If you needed multiple clicks for different band members, you could either route it a different way or else invest in a headphone distribution system. But if you're only dealing with one guy, I think this might be the easiest way. From that window you can also control click volume and the sound.

Hope that helps! As far as running off computer or CD, there are pros and cons of both ways. I personally have never had an issue with the computer but I know others who swear by a dedicated player.

Good luck!

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:16 am

Brian,

I'm not clear on what you want, and the first post is informative but I suspect not related to what you're looking for? Your exact wording sounds like you are using DP to create audio files to play back at live shows -- possibly two-track mixes?

Did you really mean that you will use DP itself at the show to play back (and potentially mix) multiple tracks? And are you referring to ANY click, or specifically the clicks that are available in DP (which probably will not be rendered to disc and will be "live")?

If you are planning on using a two-track playback mechanism to feed one WAV file per song, vs. multi-track and/or live DP "click" sounds, let me know, as I developed an approach that works so well that several others have adopted it after I wrote it up. It isn't a completely original idea as it was inspired by SOS articles, but I took it further and also discarded some of their unhelpful advice (such as beat subdivisions) that threw off every drummer I worked with.

Regardless of which of these scenarios you are going for, I have not found the DP click sounds (and I've tried them all) to be helpful to a drummer during a recording session, which leads me to believe they wouldn't be helpful at a gig either. There's a good reason for this, and it has to do with timbre, pitch, envelope, dryness/wetness, etc.

I went through HUNDREDS of sounds before I found one that has so far passed the test with every drummer I've thrown it at, and that is a temple block. It is about as dry as they come, with a nice clunky but hollow tone that doesn't get masked by other sounds (including percussive ones from a live kit). For cues, I use a cowbell in quarter notes followed by a bar of eighths. It took a few cowbell pitches/sounds before I found a good one. Both of my sound sources were initially from MOTU Ethno, but then switched to BFD's Percussion pack.

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:46 pm

Thanks guys...yes, i'm talking about using DP to make my mixes, then playing back a 2 track mix of it with a click track going to the drummer and possibly other musicians.

conleycd · Post by **conleycd** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:12 pm

I've done this frequently. I think if you have a portable Mac - it's nice to bring it to run the tracks. Especially if you have a stereo mix and a click.

In terms of the click - you can either record it to a track and then select that track's output to be a different hardware output than the stereo mix OR just route the click from the metronome options to a different buss or output.

Personally, for the live stuff I do (we're all on in ears) I make everyone have the click. It opens up lots of opportunities for dynamics that you just don't have otherwise. For example, you have your drummer cut out completely and all stay in time (without the classic hihat or ride keeping things together). It makes the band tighter. It's great for tap tempoing in as an electric guitarist playing live and I am also of the belief that it really tightens up vocalists too (who can be wandery and sloppy).

CC

WKWizard · Post by **WKWizard** » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:26 pm

Live PA's typically run mono...essentially. So mix your click to the left side and the sequence/vocals to the right. Bounce down to an mp3 and use an mp3 player to play back during shows. It works great! The drummer can use his own mixer to send an aux or direct out of the sequence/right channel to the house PA while he's the only one receiving a click. I've been doing it this way for years.

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:49 pm

Exactly. That's the way we have done it for years, which is testimony itself since no prior approach lasted more than nine months before additional experimentation and tweaking.

And as you say, it gives you the option of mixing the left channel click into the singers' in-ear monitoring.

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:42 am

That's exactly what I did a few years back for a cover band. Programmed and mixed MIDI instruments to right channel. Recorded TD20 cowbell as click to left.

The only difference is that I burned standard AIFFs to a CD which was controlled on stage by the drummer using a standard domestic unit.

I suggested to the band that if they absolutely had to have stereo, they purchase a portable 4 track recorder.

mjmoody · Post by **mjmoody** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:17 am

conleycd wrote:I've done this frequently. I think if you have a portable Mac - it's nice to bring it to run the tracks. Especially if you have a stereo mix and a click.

In terms of the click - you can either record it to a track and then select that track's output to be a different hardware output than the stereo mix OR just route the click from the metronome options to a different buss or output.

Personally, for the live stuff I do (we're all on in ears) I make everyone have the click. It opens up lots of opportunities for dynamics that you just don't have otherwise. For example, you have your drummer cut out completely and all stay in time (without the classic hihat or ride keeping things together). It makes the band tighter. It's great for tap tempoing in as an electric guitarist playing live and I am also of the belief that it really tightens up vocalists too (who can be wandery and sloppy).

CC

What kind of live stuff do you do? Rock, jazz, other? I've been fishing around for info on how to set-up something like this on other threads. My initial reason for getting DP was because people said it was so good to use in live situations, and I was aware that it was used by Pat Metheny and other artists who I admire.

I have tried mixing things on separate channels like mentioned in some of the other responses, yet I always get a little bleed from the click track to the other channel. I think I have tried taking off all reverb, but maybe I could try again. With the chunks and cueing possibilities of DP, is seems like it can just be used live.

What kind of earphones do you use for a live situation? Are there vamps or anything that go right into a track? I think with DP there is no way to change the form on the fly (add one more chorus to solo over, for instance), however, for a fusion set (as opposed to straight-ahead), I suppose the form of the piece is more planned out, so arranging on the fly is not necessary. With a vamp I suppose that could just be played live with a click, and the next chunk could be cued up waiting to begin whenever inspiration strikes the performer.

John

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:10 pm

I don't use reverb on backing tracks -- that's for home listening only!!!!

Well, I make an exception for plate delay and plate reverb on synth pads etc.

The point is that spatial/algorithmic reverbs (e.g. Hall and Room Reverb) are bound to backfire at one venue or another, or make it difficult to maintain a true dual-mono split for click/cue vs. audio.

Using production-style reverbs on live backing tracks just makes it obvious to the audience that you're using backing tracks. A major goal is to have them blend as well as possible with the live instruments.

And on that note, another word of advice is to never include bass-heavy material in backing tracks -- it throws off the balance too much, due to the extra energy and bandwidth required by bass frequencies. It also makes it more difficult to achieve balance between the different songs for a hands-off approach once you've done sound check, and also the bass frequencies are going to behave the most differently from venue to venue so leaving them out will help with creating a standard mix that works everywhere.

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:12 pm

As for how to generate backing tracks, I've lost interest in making any more as it's too much work for no/low pay, and I have to do even more difficult work for theatrical stage productions at the moment.

I was going to sell my services to some local bands until I realized how much I would have to charge them, then I discovered this newish website that is a dream come true: Karaoke Version! These guys have it figured out, and only charge a couple of bucks per song!

Karaoke Version apparently hires good musicians to do fairly accurate cover versions designed for backing track use vs. the typical karaoke file (whether MIDI or audio based) that misses all the hard stuff but duplicates the main rhythm section in intimate detail and also has a gazillion "helper" guide tracks for the vocals.

No, these are GOOD vs. CHEESY multi-track takes. I just wish they were available as WAV vs. MP3, but I convert them once loaded into DP, set my own mix levels, and might add a Plate Reverb or Plate Delay here or there and some EQ. Maybe overdub a few unique tracks.

You have to click on the Custom Arrangement button to get to the multi-track option. You only have to buy it once -- after it goes into your account, you can customize it over and over again and re-downloadmore than once! So I enable one track at a time and re-download. It takes a little while, but nowhere near as long as creating backing tracks from scratch!

As with anything, quality is variable, and I listened to a few of songs I had already done myself and found mine were usually better when it came to the synth-oriented stuff, but theirs was better when it came to stuff where I had to create MIDI to trigger sample libraries (e.g. Glockenspiel, Timpani, etc.) but where they had used real players (although I believe much of the string section material on their site is from a Kurzweil K2600 or PC3X).

The awesome thing is that you can stay on their site as long as you want, auditioning the individual tracks in the multi-track setup.

And to think they only charge a few bucks; whereas those cheesy MIDI and Karaoke Club oriented backing track sites charge upwards of $30 per song for their useless trash!

Once I discovered this site, I realized there is no longer a market for people creating project studio based MIDI+audio backing tracks.

Right now, they have a holiday sale going on (but who doesn't?).

mjmoody · Post by **mjmoody** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:05 pm

Just checked it out. Really Cool! Especially the Custom Accompaniment Tracks! Maybe they can expand to jazz. . .

Here's a link:

http://www.karaoke-version.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

John

Spikey Horse · Post by **Spikey Horse** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:43 pm

Apologies for jumping in on your thread Brian, but does anyone here know of a more 'rugged' and gig-able alternative to macbook/ DP/ 828 which can playback 6 to 8 mono outs? (I'd consider 4 if it was cheap enough and/ or had an additional separate headphones output/ mix).

Although my set up works very well my trusty macbook is starting to look a bit worse for wear (taped up sides where the case is splitting open etc) and I don't really need an expensive and fragile laptop (full of expensive software) onstage as all my backing is entirely audio tracks including click. Any triggered samples I have in separate hardware samplers.

I was wondering if there might be some sort of next generation digital multitrack/ field recorder capable of this......? I haven't looked what's out there for a while .... multiple ins is easy but multiple outs... not so common. (I guess that's why they're called multitrack recorders....)

I wish someone would just make a bare bones, dedicated gig friendly multitrack playback device aimed at onstage backing track/ click track users - a sort of cross between a digital portastudio and an old rack mounted hardware sampler.....

conleycd · Post by **conleycd** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:22 pm

mjmoody wrote: What kind of live stuff do you do? Rock, jazz, other? I've been fishing around for info on how to set-up something like this on other threads. My initial reason for getting DP was because people said it was so good to use in live situations, and I was aware that it was used by Pat Metheny and other artists who I admire.

I have tried mixing things on separate channels like mentioned in some of the other responses, yet I always get a little bleed from the click track to the other channel. I think I have tried taking off all reverb, but maybe I could try again. With the chunks and cueing possibilities of DP, is seems like it can just be used live.

What kind of earphones do you use for a live situation? Are there vamps or anything that go right into a track? I think with DP there is no way to change the form on the fly (add one more chorus to solo over, for instance), however, for a fusion set (as opposed to straight-ahead), I suppose the form of the piece is more planned out, so arranging on the fly is not necessary. With a vamp I suppose that could just be played live with a click, and the next chunk could be cued up waiting to begin whenever inspiration strikes the performer.

John

I use "in ear" headphones/monitors (no bleed gets through those). We are doing mostly rock stuff.

I'm not really doing on the fly things like - add a chorus or a verse in DP. I have done that before with Ableton Live (intro actually). I use Midistroke (converts MIDI program changes into typing) and control Ableton with that.

CC

mjmoody · Post by **mjmoody** » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:43 pm

Are they cordless earphones? What's a good brand?

John

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