Using Adjust Beats

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FMiguelez
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Post by FMiguelez »

.
toodamnedhip wrote:Yes, but is there a way to let DP automatically read the tempo from the MIDI clicks I;ve performed?

I don't think so... Not from the performed MIDI clicks. For that to work you'd still need to tell DP what's going on, and what they mean. You'd have to use adjust beats (so DP creates a conductor tempo map according to your clicks).
If you use record beats then yes, sure, but then you won't have a visible MIDI note.

This may be a long shot, but what if you record to audio your performed clicks, and then have DP analyze them, and then use Adjust sequence tempo to soundbite command???? I think you might still need a fair amount of editing, but might be worth a shot?
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FMiguelez
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Post by FMiguelez »

.

So I gather that what you really want would be something like the Record Beats command, BUT that it also recorded some kind of MIDI note you could tweak furhter while keeping it tied to the tempo...

Might be a nice addition for a future DP release :?
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toodamnhip
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Post by toodamnhip »

FMiguelez wrote:.

So I gather that what you really want would be something like the Record Beats command, BUT that it also recorded some kind of MIDI note you could tweak furhter while keeping it tied to the tempo...

Might be a nice addition for a future DP release :?
Thats a good idea but no, I want to manually record a click, tweak it until it feel great and then have DP look at the click I recorded and create a tempo map from that
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Post by FMiguelez »

.

I see...

Well, DP is ALMOST there. You just want it to automatically create the tempo map from your clicks. I know what you mean. It would save you the time it takes to Adjust the Beats manually.
That'd be nice, and I can't think it would be that hard to implement.

Basically you just want to skip that step, and a computer should be able to do that for you. All the info it needs is right there anyway. Hmmmmm...

For now, it looks like all you can do is recording your clicks as you've been doing, but you MUST use the adjust beats command. It is fairly time consuming and monotonous, but if you do that with the Snap to MIDI box checked, it should not take you that long.

Is there a way (with consoles) to have DP convert to tempo information the note on messages from the recorded clicks?? Looooong shot, but you never know...
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Post by Shooshie »

Well, now you've BOTH lost me.

toodamnhip, before I attempt to answer your question, I need to know something absolutely 100%: do you fully understand the difference between:

••• Record Beats
••• Tap Tempo
••• and Adjust Beats

You do understand that these are three different things, right?

Record Beats and Adjust Beats produce similar results. They are two different ways of accomplishing the same thing: they both tell DP where to put the barlines, but they do it in completely different ways.

Tap Tempo is not functionally related to either one. If you want to talk about creating tempo maps, this is the wrong thread. Tap Tempo creates a NEW tempo map. Tap Tempo destroys the original performance of your song and creates a new tempo map. If you do a tap-tempo on a song, then DP follows that new tempo map from now on. The original feel of the song is gone.

Record Beats and Adjust Beats work around the EXISTING tempo map. When you are done with Adjust Beats or Record Beats, the original song is still there. The original feel is still there. The song still sounds exactly like it did before you adjusted or recorded the beats.

I just want to make sure that you understand that before I go any further in attempting to answer your question, because right now I'm not sure of that, consequently your question sounds more like a misunderstanding of the function of Record Beats. When you record beats, the tempo remains the same. The tempo does not change. What changes is where DP sees beats and barlines. It's like an agreement between you and DP, where you tell DP "leave the tempo exactly where it is, but from now on you'll call THIS note the downbeat of measure 2, and we'll call THAT note the downbeat of measure 3, and so on... all through the song. DP rewrites the barlines and beat locations, and in doing so it makes some notes longer and others shorter than they originally were. In order to keep the tempo exactly the same, it has to compensate for the new note durations by altering the tempo markings of each beat, but the net result is exactly the same tempo as it was beforehand.

When you perform a "Tap Tempo," you are literally conducting the song. Your barlines and beats have to be in place before you do this, or what you conduct will not have a 1:1 relationship with what comes out. Thus, we usually do Record Beats first. Then we Adjust Beats to clean that up and make it exact. Then we Tap Tempo to create the new beatmap you're talking about.

And yes, there are ways of making DP follow your "clicks." It's called Tap Tempo. Or, if you have a song recorded in MIDI, and you want to make it follow an audio recording of that same song, assuming both songs are identical in beats and bars, you can use the original audio recording of the song to create your tempo map, and your MIDI recording will follow it and sound exactly like the audio version. I can explain how to do this, but first I have to know that we're on the same page, so to speak.

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Post by FMiguelez »

.

Shooshie wrote:Well, now you've BOTH lost me.


FMiguelez wrote:But I found that if you use record beats command for this, then the...

OUCH!! SORRY for contributing to the confusion. I meant to say Tap Tempo there (and elsewhere), as in slave to external tempo (my tapping) :oops: :oops:

I'll stand up and go to a corner facing the wall.

I'd edit what I incorrectly wrote, but I was quoted, so the mistake will still be there... :oops:
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Adjust beats question

Post by audiobrad »

Perhaps Shooshie knows the answer to this one.

I have a number of audio clips that have pick-ups before beat one. If I adjust beats to get the first downbeat aligned on a bar line (and subsequent downbeats aligned on bar lines), the conductor track inserts a tempo change one bar before beat one (to make beat one hit on beat one) with another tempo change on beat one that follows the tempo of the audio clip.

What I want to do is to get the bar lines aligned a full bar earlier so that the pick-up is in tempo. I can't seem to accomplish this other than by trial and error.

Once you align the beats in the clip, it seems there must be some way to extend that to the bar before the first beat. This is also valuable for creating a bar of count off in the new tempo.
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Re: Adjust beats question

Post by Shooshie »

audiobrad wrote:Perhaps Shooshie knows the answer to this one.

I have a number of audio clips that have pick-ups before beat one. If I adjust beats to get the first downbeat aligned on a bar line (and subsequent downbeats aligned on bar lines), the conductor track inserts a tempo change one bar before beat one (to make beat one hit on beat one) with another tempo change on beat one that follows the tempo of the audio clip.

What I want to do is to get the bar lines aligned a full bar earlier so that the pick-up is in tempo. I can't seem to accomplish this other than by trial and error.

Once you align the beats in the clip, it seems there must be some way to extend that to the bar before the first beat. This is also valuable for creating a bar of count off in the new tempo.
Did you watch my video on Adjust Beats? It's in the Tips Sheet, somewhere around page 4, perhaps. It may be boring, but it demonstrates some methods of working that you'd find helpful in this situation. For this, you need to adjust individual beats, turn snapping off (just hold down the COMMAND key while you move the beats. That will turn off the grid.) And you have to use the Conductor Track as your guide; as you move the beat back and forth, you'll see the tempo markers jump up and down, and when they are level between themselves, you've generally got the beat positioned about right.

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Adjust Beats Question

Post by audiobrad »

Thanks Shooshie. I'll play around a little more with adjust beats. I just have to make sure it can be done fast as we have hundreds of edits to make. BTW, I couldn't view your video. Tried several times on two different Macs using both FireFox and Safari. I'd like to see it. Please let me know what I need to do.

Thanks!
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Post by Shooshie »

I'll check out the vid. Maybe something went wrong with it. Thanks for the heads-up.
Ok... just got back from checking it, and what I found was that you just have to let it load. It takes a while. The video is 16 minutes long, and frankly, I have a hard time staying awake while watching it. I've got to shorten it and make it move faster. I'm just learning about doing demo videos. I just tried to demonstrate on too much music at once. I should have chosen a bar or two. Also, the audio is out of sync with the video by the end. Some of the most important points are in the last half of the video.

When you open the video window, do you get a new window with the Quicktime "Q" in it? If so, then it's opening properly. Just give it time. You may want to go ahead and let it be loading while you read the rest of this post. Go ahead and click here, and push it into the background while it loads. Leave your audio turned on so that you can tell when it starts. Then come back and read the rest of this post while waiting. If no page comes up with the Q on it, would you let me know? I may need to move it to a different folder in my iDisk.

The key points are:

1) ALWAYS use two tracks at once: the Conductor Track, and the musical track to which you want to align everything. The latter may be MIDI or Audio, but the other one always has to be the Conductor Track.
2) The two tracks must be perfectly aligned so that your beats in both windows line up. The importance of this will become apparent in a moment
3) Because of #1 and #2, you may want to use the Sequence Editor to do this, since the tracks by necessity will be aligned. If you prefer to use the MIDI Graphic Editor, you'll need to do it in Consolidated Windows, and you'll need to OPTION-CLICK and DRAG in the time ruler of each window to zoom them to the same zoom level, so they will line up perfectly.
4) Use the COMMAND Key to toggle the grid on and off. When there is a note falling exactly on the beat, you can drag the beat line and let it "Snap" to the note. When there is no note falling on a particular beat, you'll need to use the Command Key to turn off Grid/Snapping, so that you can drag the beat line to the right place without it wanting to snap to the nearest neighboring note.
5) When there is no note or other landmark to which to position a beat line, how do you know where to place it? Now is when you learn why I insist on steps 1, 2, and 3. As you move the beat line around, watch what happens to your tempo markers in the Conductor Track. Where there is no perfectly aligning note, you use those tempo markers as your guide. They should level out when you have it "right."

If you've been opening the video while reading this, chances are that it's already started, or will soon. You'll note in the vid where I have gone over the points above (though I didn't number them this way). Good luck staying awake, but if you do, I think you'll understand this feature pretty well.

Shooshie
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Post by audiobrad »

Thanks Shooshie! Video works (I just was too impatient). It was interesting to see how you did the adjust beats. The biggest thing I took away from it was sizing the conductor track adjacent to the audio track to watch the tempo changes. When I get into the studio on monday I'll try it out. Thanks again!

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Re: Using Adjust Beats

Post by ToBeJazz »

Shooshie,

just wanted to say a big THANK YOU for the video. Excellent work.
I've been working with Adjust Beats, Record Beats and Tap Tempo from time to time for many years and know them quite well, but I've always found it good to go back to learn the basics again from time to time.

Currently I'm working on a Bach piece (Goldberg variation 25) where I first thought I should be playing my guitar ad lib/rubato by myself, then doing Adjust Beats to have my MIDI arrangement follow - then found out that I should actually prepare a tempo map on beforehand and record my guitar to a click track (of that tempo map). It was heavy work, took around 15 hours to get the tempo map of this 6 minutes piece right - it includes these tiny tempo shifts from beat to beat that makes it flowing naturally.

I played my guitar to the created rubato tempo map, and at certain spots I even played rubato on top of the rubato tempo map. Now after recording I can see I also need to do some Adjusting Beats, then have my MIDI arrangement to follow everything...

It's a strange and very lengthy working process, and real easy to get lost in the middle of it - but I believe there are some specific qualities that could come from this way of working, and in the end it will hopefully sound just right.


...Tobias
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Re: Using Adjust Beats

Post by EMRR »

missed this while digging around the other day somehow over here:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... a&start=15


Doesn't get into what I'm futzing with (copy beats), but well worth watching. Thanks!
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