DP & Logic 8

[waxman]

Now I know what you my friend was talking about a few months ago with what was coming in Logic 8. I went into Mac Gallery this afternoon and worked on Logic Pro for a while. No Latency is awesome especially on the VIs. And the Logic VIs sounded good to me. So I have a couple of questions. I am ordering everything tomorrow. I am not bailing on DP but I must have the the MIDI implementation of Logic VIs. I did not do a mix in Logic 8 but I did everything else.

My question is in the demos on the Apple site Scott Wilkie is using symphony and Intel Macs. view at...

http://seminars.apple.com/seminarsonlin ... ndex1.html

I have a G5 Dual Core 2.3 with 4 gigs ram (the last one before the intel machines, and a MOTU 896 HD.

Will I still get no Latency with the VIs? Will the Motu hardware work fine? I am not concerned for Audio since I use analog mixers, aux cue mixes, and class A mic pres, Hear Back cue mixes so I am pre computer on the headphone mixes.

But the MIDI implementation, the elegance of Logic and the way it worked blew me away. Steve Jobs and his band of pirates must have looked at DP and once again took something great made it simpler and better.

Apple is just so good and getting the feel right. I just wished they would have bought MOTU instead of emagic... anyway I will stop sniveling...

Would you please let me know if I will need an Intel machine or point me to someone who would?

PSSSS>... I am apologizing and eating crow for all the people that waited to see the vapor ware regarding the Control surface. During the demo I just the Mackie Universal Pro... I will be purchasing that set up in the morning also. Yes it is also the best... and the Logic template is stenciled right on the Control surface. So pharoah, James Steele and the rest of you guys sorry. I owe you one. Forgive me, grovel, grovel, grovel...
Thanks so much

by the way don't turn this thread into a Logic vs DP thing. I am sure Logic pro 8 has a bunch of bugs and will piss me off at times. But it was really easy to use right out of the gate. Again I am not bailing on DP. I am sure DP will come out swinging and kick butt. However Logic is $499 msrp and that is all the reason I need...

[emulatorloo]

no Latency with the VIs? Will the Motu hardware work fine?

I do not have logic 8 yet, still w Logic 7. Dual 2.0 G5 w PCIx-424.

Yes your MOTU hardware will work w logic. Many logic users use MOTU hardware.

Yes you can set the buffers very low for tracking VI's.

see also:

Topic : Logic 8 and Motu 424 PCI
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jsp ... 9&#5354419

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Here are the logic forums:

http://logicprohelp.com/

http://discussions.apple.com/forum.jspa ... 01&start=0

http://logic-users.org/

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[vsomedia]

I have been mixing a sixteen track project in Logic Express 8. I'm using a lot of guitar amp pro plugins and the usual eq, comp, and reverbs with the low latency setting. During the mix I decided to add some keyboard tracks, a b4 and a sampler track and I haven't once had to think about dealing with the buffers. I'm using a dual 2.0 G5 with a Traveler interface.
For writing this rocks, but for editing and mixing I'll take DP any day. My business relies on DP and I'm hoping they incorporate whatever Apple is doing to maximize the efficiency of the system at low buffer settings.

[zaster]

Just to put it out there- I don't particularly give a hoot for any of the bundled Logic VIs or effects. I think it would be cool if DP had a compressor like this, but there's nothing in most of this 40 gigs of "extras" for DP users to be envious of, IMO. The main draws are latency/performance-related (the BIG one) and, for me, the comp feature. A few other, mostly interface-related, elements are cleaner and smoother than DP but for everything like that, there's something I prefer in DP. I will get around to making a list one of these days. It's a lot of small stuff.

I prefer DP's note division button we can quickly click on for a snap grid to having to choose between "bar", "beat" or "division" and then, if you picked "division" to have to go into the transport and enter a fraction into the division field. Much easier to click on the eighth note or sixteenth note image in the upper right corner dropdown, IMO.

I prefer DPs "tracks to view" sorting bar on the left of all windows to L8s "selection-based" way of trying to guess what you want to see and then giving you no recourse but to go back to the Arrange Window and revise your selection to get what you wanted to see into the Editor Wndow. Sure if I'd grown up this way, I'd be used to it, but i don't feel like I should have to suffer just cause I didn't "select" exactly right before I went into the Piano Roll.

I think the Channel EQ isn't worse than the MW EQ, but it's a hell of lot uglier and certainly no better. And as for the sampler and synths, if you have already any of the NI stuff, then these things feel more like freeware than something you'd get excited about. I had my hopes up for the Space Designer, but it's no Altiverb substitute- to my ears it sounds for some reason synthetic, more like a digital reverb than a convolution. So if you need to have Altiverb anyway, I doubt you'll be opening up the Space Designer for any reason.

And lastly, a minor point perhaps, the GUIs for all the effects and VIs are super-ugly. I may have never seen uglier. The EQ isn't so bad but it ends there. And it's no MW EQ. You don't notice how pretty that thing is till you've spent a few minutes looking at these other mugs. I have no idea how this came about, but the aesthetic gap between the overall L8 environment and the plugins is simply bizarre! They outsourced one of those jobs, would be my guess... (but which one?)

Interface stuff that *actually* matters? Having play/mute/solo buttons that you can click on without a magnifying glass! How many times, in the frenzy of trying to get something done fast in DP, do you start playback and rush over to try to enable play on the track you want to hear and/or mute on some other track before the playhead gets there only to miss some button by a fraction of a millimeter and therefore have to stop and start the transport again? Perhaps you've more hand/eye coordination than I, but I woud estimate this happens to me between 5 and 10 times a day!

[Mr_Clifford]

I haven't been able to find anything about the pitch correction in L8 from the manual. I know it has it, but does it have it integrated into the editor in a similar way to DP's pitch correction, or is it just a set-and-hope-for-the-best plug in that you whack in the track insert?

[wvandyck]

Can someone comment on the process of transferring files from say Logic to DP (in a "writing in Logic, but editing/mixing in DP" scenario)?

I've read through the OMF/AAF Export information in the DP5 manual.

Would one export just audio? Or an extensive MIDI arrangement via SMF?

How well does this actually work?

Rambling Commentary:
My ideas flowed pretty smoothing years ago when using the Arrange window in Cubase. The capacity to use vertical zoom in the Arrange window (which is sort of like the T.O. in DP, but on steroids) allowed for efficient MIDI data block editing. Many users coming to DP have requested this feature. Those in the know indicated that DP's T.O. window is part of the core coding and couldn't be changed. The Sequence editor is a new layer of coding on top of the T.O. that allows for vertical zoom. So the focus shifted to requesting a MIDI block editing feature in the S.E. Perhaps if MOTU just added an Arrange window layer, that would offer users an additional work-flow option.

It's interesting that the time I transitioned to DP was a period that I started to "listen" and become concerned with the art of mixing and the science of mastering, more detailed aspects compared to the writing process.

As a result, I learned to love DPs audio editing features, the mixer and it's routing/board layouts, etc, Show/Hide tracks feature, and much more.

So at this point, I am in fact looking at Logic as an add-on to my work flow. DP cannot be replaced. On the other hand, I don't want to make things overly complicated by working with two applications when one can get the job done.

[emulatorloo]

Can someone comment on the process of transferring files from say Logic to DP (in a "writing in Logic, but editing/mixing in DP" scenario)?

I've read through the OMF/AAF Export information in the DP5 manual.

Would one export just audio? Or an extensive MIDI arrangement via SMF?

How well does this actually work?

Since the alleged advantage of Logic for writing is:

Fast VI response
Logic's bundled VI's (EXS24, the organ one, Sculpture etc)

Then exporting an extensive MIDI arrangement to DP via SMF would not really be that advantageous.

Best would be to export the audio at "zero"

Some good information in this thread -- is about a DP user collaborating with ProTools user but should have some theoretical stuff in it that will help -- basically re setting up audio export at "zero" (1/1/000)

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99997

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[kelldammit]

Can someone comment on the process of transferring files from say Logic to DP (in a "writing in Logic, but editing/mixing in DP" scenario)?
I've read through the OMF/AAF Export information in the DP5 manual.
Would one export just audio? Or an extensive MIDI arrangement via SMF?
How well does this actually work?

7.23 and dp5.11 worked fine with omf. i haven't tried 8 yet. to simplify things, you can set the preference to record sdII in logic. at that point, just exporting as an omf and importing that into dp (5.11) worked pretty smoothly. the reverse was also true. 5.12 doesn't seem to deal with omf well, and i'm not sure about any changes with l8...

[wvandyck]

Very helpful info!!!

The link covered all bases.

My hunch was that it would be pointless and a time-waster to export an elaborate MIDI sequence from one program to another. Audio is a more reasonable scenario.

OMF, with Logic set to record sdII it is.
File exchange will be one of my first experiments once I get somewhat up to speed.

I'll be sure to chronicle these and other adventures.

Cheers.

[zaster]

My hunch was that it would be pointless and a time-waster to export an elaborate MIDI sequence from one program to another. Audio is a more reasonable scenario.

Can you explain? Exporting MIDI is the most effortless part of it all, I would think.

[kelldammit]

smf's work pretty well...especially if you don't have any audio to speak of...they're pretty much the only game in town.
though, if you export smf's, and put lyrics and other such text in your markers in logic, any text in your marker (the name, etc) won't survive. instead, you'll get markers with what looks like html with font info, etc...referencing .rtf files (where logic apparently stores the text, if more than just a marker name).

kell

[wvandyck]

My hunch was that it would be pointless and a time-waster to export an elaborate MIDI sequence from one program to another. Audio is a more reasonable scenario.

Can you explain? Exporting MIDI is the most effortless part of it all, I would think.

Working with SMF is easy.
But why would one "compose" (in my case 15-30) MIDI tracks with VIs, volume and pan automation, etc in one program, then export it to another?
Only to have to assign VI's again? Also kelldammits indication that marker text wont survive. But, if the markers do, then that's not so bad.

In the past when using a G4, I would record VI tracks to audio to free up cpu and to have the option to use audio processors and effects before the final BTD.

I wont really know until I get Logic set up, but it seesms likely that if I were to do a mostly MIDI project, I would go with Logic. If mostly audio, then DP.
Or MIDI thats recorded as audio in Logic, then transfer to DP.

What do you suggest?

[zaster]

I wont really know until I get Logic set up, but it seesms likely that if I were to do a mostly MIDI project, I would go with Logic. If mostly audio, then DP.
Or MIDI thats recorded as audio in Logic, then transfer to DP.

What do you suggest?

Check out Sdfalk's post for another perspective. I think the overall editing- especially for MIDI is still gonna be better in DP. However it may take getting used to L8 and understanding what it can do before I can say for sure. As to the hassle of exporting a giant composition from DP to Logic- It's painless. Here's a scenario: I have a large orchestral piece using 3 maxed out instances of Kontakt, 1. String Multi 2. Woodwind Multi 3. Brass Multi. Beyond importing the MIDI file (which retains all it's controller info) of the whole Orchestra, my setup would be as simple as instantiating 3 Kontakts in L8 and loading the multis (.nkm) I created in DP. Turns out routing the multi outs is super easy- you just hit this little "+" button on the Kontakt VI track- DONE.
It would take longer to set up a bunch of channel strips/mixing board layout, complete with plugins to mimic a project done in the other app, in either direction. I am warming up to the mixing environment in L8 more than I thought. Both are good, I think. I do prefer the Show/Hide in DP though.
For my audio editing tasks which tend to be comp tasks, I prefer Logic. But as mentioned here and elsewhere- there's no Beat Detection and no pitch stuff (Don't think so, anyway), so if you need that stuff, its gotta be DP.

[kelldammit]

oh, and to clarify the marker thing...if you just name a marker, that's fine. it works fine with the smf, as do chords (i believe), key, tempo, etc.
logic allows you to put more text into the markers, though, so you can have a sort of karaoke thing going on. to see what i mean, open the shiny toy guns project on the demo disk. leave the text window open, and you'll see the verse marker has the verse lyrics, etc etc...that is the extra text that won't survive smf (i'm sure it wasn't exactly anticipated when they developed the standard)...and inclusion of lyrics or notes or whatnot into the markers as described above will mangle the marker names as well. the marker positions and lengths seem to stay intact, though. so it's not really that big a deal.

kell

[wvandyck]

Zaster,
Interesting comments. I use Mach 5, but it sounds like I could save "Performance" snapshots in M5, then load them when the SMF is imported to the other program to match up with the MIDI tracks and their channel assignments. Very cool. Thank you. (It remains to be seen whether I'll work L8 to DP, vice versa, or to remain either one.)

Show/Hide really helps me focus when there's too many things going on in the project. DP has so many cool features. I can run 256 MIDI channels of Mach 5 in DP, but only 16 in logic per instance. Trades off: L8 low latency; DPs 256 MIDI channels (up to 30 is all I really need)

kell,
Thanks for clarifying the marker text. My labels are very brief, no lyrics.
I'll check out shiney toy guns when it arrives.
Cheers