All done on DP 4.12

[Todzilla]

Feedback welcomed, especially detailed critical feedback:

Click this-> The Trap

Me: production, songwriting, vox, keys, guitars
Lynchiepoo: drums
Ollywood: bass

All instruments real, except digital piano, freak solo & sampled Mellotron (isn't that redundant?).

Thanks

[31flies]

I'm terrible at production still so I'll have to comment where you probably didn't want it: the song.

The song is a cool little one. Reminds me of some of those Police songs that Stewart Copeland wrote back in the 70's/80's. Also reminds me a lot of XTC. Both of which, from my perspective, should be taken as compliments.

The lyrics/melody are relentless until the fading refrain, which is a lot more relaxing to listen to. But the nonstop energy up until the end is pretty fun.

I think if I'd written this song I'd be pretty darned proud of myself.

But what do I know.

[chrispick]

The only way I know how to criticize other people's tracks is to imagine I'm producing the song for them. Accepting that, here's my two cents:

Good song. Fun. Pop music needs more humor.

I agree with the Copeland / XTC flavor. Definitely comes to mind. Andy Partridge melody and Colin Moulding timbre by way of Klark Kent irreverence. I, too, love this stuff. Grew up on it.

Vocals sound good. Full and pitched right. Not too overcooked.

Lyrics are fun, especially toward the end.

Distortion guitar and drums sound weak. Especially snare. Needs to crack.

Everything could use a bump up in definition. Little murky. Definitely give the clean, arpeggio guitar more air.

Bass intonation? Sometimes sounds a touch off during unison parts.

Might vary the chorus arrangement so it stands out more from the verses. Something simple. Maybe tambourine? Handclaps (would help the snare)? Maybe some very light suitcase organ lines a la Vox Continental or Farfisa?

Know what else would be cool in the chorus? Marimba. Or steel drum! I'd also maybe up the harmony vocals here a bit.

Last, I'd process the wacked solo more. I'm thinking Space Echo primarily. Maybe some filtering. Crazier panning. Go loopy.

Help? Hurt?

[monkey man]

Very interesting piece, Todzilla.
Sorry I took so long to respond here; it's only taken five days to download in the background.

Chrispick's observations are gold, and I agree with all of them.
Mind you, his standards are high, and are intended to help you take the piece into lofty, dare I say it, "classic" territory.

One of the first things I noticed was the cool vibe left behind during and after the fade, FWIW.
Good stuff; keep it up, man!

[Todzilla]

I'm terrible at production still so I'll have to comment where you probably didn't want it: the song.

The song is a cool little one. Reminds me of some of those Police songs that Stewart Copeland wrote back in the 70's/80's. Also reminds me a lot of XTC. Both of which, from my perspective, should be taken as compliments.

The lyrics/melody are relentless until the fading refrain, which is a lot more relaxing to listen to. But the nonstop energy up until the end is pretty fun.

I think if I'd written this song I'd be pretty darned proud of myself.

But what do I know.

Thanks 31! Yeah, I'm an 80s nerd, what can I say. I take your adjective "relentless" as a complement, as I was aiming for a frentic unrelenting vibe.

[Todzilla]

The only way I know how to criticize other people's tracks is to imagine I'm producing the song for them. Accepting that, here's my two cents:

Good song. Fun. Pop music needs more humor.

I agree with the Copeland / XTC flavor. Definitely comes to mind. Andy Partridge melody and Colin Moulding timbre by way of Klark Kent irreverence. I, too, love this stuff. Grew up on it.

Vocals sound good. Full and pitched right. Not too overcooked.

Lyrics are fun, especially toward the end.

Distortion guitar and drums sound weak. Especially snare. Needs to crack.

Everything could use a bump up in definition. Little murky. Definitely give the clean, arpeggio guitar more air.

Bass intonation? Sometimes sounds a touch off during unison parts.

Might vary the chorus arrangement so it stands out more from the verses. Something simple. Maybe tambourine? Handclaps (would help the snare)? Maybe some very light suitcase organ lines a la Vox Continental or Farfisa?

Know what else would be cool in the chorus? Marimba. Or steel drum! I'd also maybe up the harmony vocals here a bit.

Last, I'd process the wacked solo more. I'm thinking Space Echo primarily. Maybe some filtering. Crazier panning. Go loopy.

Help? Hurt?

Wow Chris. Thanks so much for the detailed feedback. It's quite helpful.

The only nugget you provided that surprised me was the snare comment. I was proud that I thought I'd finally copped a good drum sound. Are you hearing more compression for a punch? or more 1K boost for a crack? We put an Audix i5 on the snare into my Demeter preamp, and an SM57 underneath.

All mics but the oversnare and room Neumann used my standard preamps in my MOTU 896HD. Not too shabby, but not up to the standards of my Demeter...

The guitar sound, yeah, that's me and I'm not a guitarist as you can hear. I'm fairly happy with the clean sound, but the grind stuff isn't working for me yet. It's a particle board Gibson Sonex into a Mesa Boogie. I just did the SM57 in the grill with my Neumann in the room. But i think I fell back to the SM57 for the basic sound. Some folks have advised bailing on the mic'ed amp and going to a sim, but I'm not ready to go that route just yet.

Anyway, your feedback is very helpful, especially the less-than-glowing comments. That's what'll help me the most.

[chrispick]

Wow Chris. Thanks so much for the detailed feedback. It's quite helpful.

You're welcome!

The only nugget you provided that surprised me was the snare comment. I was proud that I thought I'd finally copped a good drum sound. Are you hearing more compression for a punch? or more 1K boost for a crack? We put an Audix i5 on the snare into my Demeter preamp, and an SM57 underneath.

Yeah, I think you can fix the snare with some processing and mix tweaking. Sounds like it was recorded fine.

What I'd do: PSP VintageWarmer on the primary snare mic (Audix, I assume). If you don't have the plug, drop the cash; it's worth it. Start with the default snare setting. Blend it in until it sounds right to you. Also, the UAD-1 Neve 1073 EQ can work really well on fast transient stuff like snares.

All mics but the oversnare and room Neumann used my standard preamps in my MOTU 896HD. Not too shabby, but not up to the standards of my Demeter...

Maybe it's a matter of dialing down these room mics a little? I often find room mics muddy up a drum track.

The guitar sound, yeah, that's me and I'm not a guitarist as you can hear. I'm fairly happy with the clean sound, but the grind stuff isn't working for me yet. It's a particle board Gibson Sonex into a Mesa Boogie. I just did the SM57 in the grill with my Neumann in the room. But i think I fell back to the SM57 for the basic sound. Some folks have advised bailing on the mic'ed amp and going to a sim, but I'm not ready to go that route just yet.

No, don't bail on the amp. IMO, amp sims can sound good in some "supporting role" cases, but not without a lot of tweaking.

The 57 should work fine. Maybe back it off the grill a few inches, then re-record with your amp turned up (but the distortion turned down)?

Also try recording a second pass with different pickup and amp settings. And, if possible, use a different mic as well. I find MD421s blend great with 57s.

If you can get your hands on a Royer 121, that'd work great for adding some pleasant highs to the arpeggio guitar part (again, as a separate blend pass).

Anyway, your feedback is very helpful, especially the less-than-glowing comments. That's what'll help me the most.

I really liked the song. I'd hoped my opinions would serve as some sort of positive criticism -- or at least a springboard for you to think about them, and say "yeah,""nah," or "meh."

[Todzilla]

Very interesting piece, Todzilla.
Sorry I took so long to respond here; it's only taken five days to download in the background.

Chrispick's observations are gold, and I agree with all of them.
Mind you, his standards are high, and are intended to help you take the piece into lofty, dare I say it, "classic" territory.

One of the first things I noticed was the cool vibe left behind during and after the fade, FWIW.
Good stuff; keep it up, man!

Thanks mon. Not quite sure what you mean about the fade stuff, but I try to cool •••• into the mix as the fade draws down, if that's what you meant.

[31flies]

Okay, I've gone from thinking that I would be proud if I'd written this song to just being downright jealous. So I've got to know, how many tracks went into this piece? What is that guitar effect in the mid and end? It sounds like a cat being raped and it's fantastic. I'm sure it's something simple that I just don't know about. It really is right out of an Andy Summers solo I just can't place the song (something on Regatta...maybe.)

It's funny, everything is right out front and in your face on this song and yet it has taken 4 or 5 listens over the course of the better part of a week to actually get a little jealous.

Have you posted this on GB? It's really a perfect song.

I'll stop commenting now and just listen a few more times (or more than a few.)

[monkey man]

One of the first things I noticed was the cool vibe left behind during and after the fade, FWIW.
Good stuff; keep it up, man!

Thanks mon. Not quite sure what you mean about the fade stuff, but I try to cool •••• into the mix as the fade draws down, if that's what you meant.

I meant the (cool) vibe left behind... in the listener.
It's all good, man.

[Todzilla]

Okay, I've gone from thinking that I would be proud if I'd written this song to just being downright jealous. So I've got to know, how many tracks went into this piece? What is that guitar effect in the mid and end? It sounds like a cat being raped and it's fantastic. I'm sure it's something simple that I just don't know about. It really is right out of an Andy Summers solo I just can't place the song (something on Regatta...maybe.)

It's funny, everything is right out front and in your face on this song and yet it has taken 4 or 5 listens over the course of the better part of a week to actually get a little jealous.

Have you posted this on GB? It's really a perfect song.

I'll stop commenting now and just listen a few more times (or more than a few.)

Thanks. You're quite kind.

Freakish solo- I love hearing people's guesses and theories. Some think it's a highly processed recording of human screams. Others like yourself think it's a highly processed recording of guitar a la Adrian Belew. What it really is - a Korg Prophecy synth with (I am embarrassed to admit) a stock patch. I played a bunch of takes until I got just the right lines down. There's even a part of it in which I tried to cop the harmonica hook from War's "Low Rider." Most people I've played it for love the solo, but those who don't love it absolutely despise it.

Here's a rough recollection of the track breakdown:

Drums:
Over snare - Audix i5 into Demeter pre
Under snare - SM57 into 896HD pre
Inside kick - AKG D112 into 896HD pre
Beater head kick - Audix D4 into 896HD pre
Hit hat mic - SM57 into 896HD pre
Overhead pair - Crown CM700s into 896HD pre
Room - Neumann U89 into Demeter pre

Bass: Direct into Demeter

Clean guitar1 - mic'ed Mesa Boogie into Demeter pre
Clean guitar2 - mic'ed Mesa Boogie into Demeter pre
Filthy guitar 1 - mic'ed Mesa Boogie into Demeter pre
Filthy guitar 2 - mic'ed Epiphone Valve Junior into Demeter pre
Filthy guitar 3 - mic'ed Mesa Boogie into Demeter pre (different guitar)
Filthy guitar 4 - mic'ed Epiphone Valve Junior into Demeter pre (different guitar)

Keys:
Piano - Roland RD-300RD direct into Demeter pre
Mellotron - Stock Emulator ESI-32 sample direct into Demeter pre
Freak solo - Korg Prophecy direct into Demeter pre

Vox:
About 8 tracks in unison and/or harmony -Neumann U89 into Demeter pre

Old Schooler that I am, I didn't even realize one could post non Garage Band created material on Garage Band. Thanks for the tip.

[monkey man]

Freak solo - Korg Prophecy direct into Demeter pre

You had me.
I'd have guessed a voice through a crankin' guitar amp or processor.