Mac OS X 10.4.9

Phil Jeffers · Post by **Phil Jeffers** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:46 am

Shooshie wrote:I guess I'll be holding off on the upgrade for a while. Waves is saying no to it. Here's my reasoning:

••• I prefer to use MAS plugins, but Waves makes no MAS plugins for the Intel Macs yet. That's strike one.
••• So, I use AU, but Waves says don't even use THAT with DP version 5.11. I use AU anyway, version 5.9 on my MacPro with DP. That's strike two.
••• The bases are loaded, Shooshie's up to bat, and Apple pitches a fast ball down the center. It looks like an easy home run and Grand Slam. It's name is 10.4.9. The umpire is Waves, and he says swing at that ball and it's gonna be a strike.
••• everybody knows that on strike three, you're O-U-T!

So I'm gonna just walk this one. I hope we hear from Waves very soon.

Shooshie

Hi Shooshie (father of son of Shooshie!), unfortunately Logic and Nuendo are Waves main clientele now. I'm not trying to excuse this, but I think it may be the old bean counters giving the operational side the direction on this. I too think it's ridiculous that we have had to wait something like 6 months just to get updaters for DP ver 5.11 (although they have qualified PPC 5.01, so I guess that's some consolation). And the best they can come up with is: "there will be an update soon..." Not happy Jan!

David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:38 am

I posted in the thread about 10.4.9 and Waves, but anyway I'll reiterate here - no problems with Waves and 10.4.9 and DP 4.61.

I was just about to go ahead with movin' up to 5.11, but now I may just hold onto 4.61 for awhile longer..

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PPC G5 Dual 2.3Ghz, 4.5 GB RAM, second internal drive for audio, OSX 10.4.9, DP 4.61, Waves, Blue Tubes, T-Racks, Ozone3, MH Channel Strip, Pianoteq, NI Komplete 3, Ethno, micro-tonic, lots of other plugs and VI's.

bayswater · Post by **bayswater** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:42 am

Shooshie wrote:I guess I'll be holding off on the upgrade for a while. Waves is saying no to it. Here's my reasoning:

So I'm gonna just walk this one. I hope we hear from Waves very soon.

Shooshie

Is the Waves problem specific to Intel, and V5? Or does it reach back to PPC and earlier versions (V4)?

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:16 am

In all fairness to Waves, they have been most helpful during this time in private conversations over the phone. They've told me that they are working furiously on the MAS versions right now, and I've heard that from others who have talked to them recently. Almost like they're embarrassed that it's not out yet, and want to reassure us that they're working on it.

They might have needed to wait for this release of 10.4.9 before a final release, suspecting that it was going to break something. Who knows? I really don't. I'm just guessing and trying to pass on the "vibe" we've been getting from them recently.

Today I bought the L3LL MultiMaximizer, or rather "upgraded" to it from the L3 Ultramaximizer. Just a token sign of my faith in their efforts, combined with my gullibility as a drinker of the Kool-Aid.

Shooshie

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:19 am

bayswater wrote:
Shooshie wrote:I guess I'll be holding off on the upgrade for a while. Waves is saying no to it. Here's my reasoning:

So I'm gonna just walk this one. I hope we hear from Waves very soon.

Shooshie
Is the Waves problem specific to Intel, and V5? Or does it reach back to PPC and earlier versions (V4)?

I don't know the official word, but I was using it in 5.11 on a G4 Dual 1GHz tower, and there were zero problems. Switching to Intel, it becomes a problem, first, because there are no links to upgrade for DP on their website. I used the Logic AU links. So far, the plugins I've used have worked.

Shooshie

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:04 pm

Shooshie wrote:I guess I'll be holding off on the upgrade for a while. Waves is saying no to it. Here's my reasoning:

••• I prefer to use MAS plugins, but Waves makes no MAS plugins for the Intel Macs yet. That's strike one.
••• So, I use AU, but Waves says don't even use THAT with DP version 5.11. I use AU anyway, version 5.9 on my MacPro with DP. That's strike two.
••• The bases are loaded, Shooshie's up to bat, and Apple pitches a fast ball down the center. It looks like an easy home run and Grand Slam. It's name is 10.4.9. The umpire is Waves, and he says swing at that ball and it's gonna be a strike.
••• everybody knows that on strike three, you're O-U-T!

So I'm gonna just walk this one. I hope we hear from Waves very soon.

Shooshie

Hey Shoosh, long time my friend. I have been busy and when the forum went down, well, I knda forgot about coming here. Then I came back once and I am addicted again. There goes all my effin productivity...it's good to be back though. Anyway, hey dude , what happens to your old masters that used MAS waves Plug Ins when loaded in a system that now uses AU?
Does DP convert so that the plug stll works, keeping all automation etc, or, do does wvaes/DP lose it's mind , not even recognize there was a setting etc? I would guess that if you changed from MAS to AU, something get screwed up in those old masters. You know me dude, always bitching about them masters working into eternity. Batter up!

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:09 pm

Phil Jeffers wrote:
Shooshie wrote:I guess I'll be holding off on the upgrade for a while. Waves is saying no to it. Here's my reasoning:

••• I prefer to use MAS plugins, but Waves makes no MAS plugins for the Intel Macs yet. That's strike one.
••• So, I use AU, but Waves says don't even use THAT with DP version 5.11. I use AU anyway, version 5.9 on my MacPro with DP. That's strike two.
••• The bases are loaded, Shooshie's up to bat, and Apple pitches a fast ball down the center. It looks like an easy home run and Grand Slam. It's name is 10.4.9. The umpire is Waves, and he says swing at that ball and it's gonna be a strike.
••• everybody knows that on strike three, you're O-U-T!

So I'm gonna just walk this one. I hope we hear from Waves very soon.

Shooshie
Hi Shooshie (father of son of Shooshie!), unfortunately Logic and Nuendo are Waves main clientele now. I'm not trying to excuse this, but I think it may be the old bean counters giving the operational side the direction on this. I too think it's ridiculous that we have had to wait something like 6 months just to get updaters for DP ver 5.11 (although they have qualified PPC 5.01, so I guess that's some consolation). And the best they can come up with is: "there will be an update soon..." Not happy Jan!

Could be but MOTU has to see this and try to gicve waves incentives to update MOTU drivers. Ever noticed that when you call tech support, anytime you ask about any 3rd party plug, the techs talk like it's something that has nothing to do with them? This is a flawed philosophy. And it may just allow MOTU to sit back and take delays. In the real world, MOTU and other companies need to be aware that waves is just as important as the main app. For if it becomes a standard, then one damn plug in not working right ruins a mix. Motu cannot be 100% responsible, true. But they should think of it as somewhat their responsiblity because the reality is, waves and DP, when made into a master, is a joint work. Period!

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:33 pm

I agree, TDH. I do understand that when it comes to DAE that MOTU has its own priorities with its own interfaces where MAS is paramount as far as they're concerned. But, if DAW is going to be a workstation with features that address various aspects of audio formats (including wav and mp4), plugin formats, etc., there must be some genuine cooperation between MOTU and the plugin developers where everyone is more focused on making their own software work in OSX rather than with one another.

I've often imagined one company asking another company to change part of their code to allow a feature or two to work but then finding resistance where such a change creates more problems than it might solve-- then the issue gets set aside indefinitely.

That's part of the reason, from what I understand, why Digidesign went into its own corner with its hardware/software combo, and part of the reason why I opted years ago for a MOTU interface with some reservation. My main goal was to at least start with hardware and software that were made for one another and tested with one another even where the sound I wanted from some other interface was to be sacrificed.

DP has come a long way with the way virtual instruments work. For the most part, they actually show up in the Add Tracks menu. That raises another question: where does the burden of responsibility rest when a new plugin may or may not work inside a DAW host? Should the DAW change its scheme to accommodate the plugin or should the plugin act like a true guest and accommodate the DAW host? Something like Ivory has been more or less problem free whereas Waves and M-Audio appear to be struggling to keep up even with OSX, let alone the DAW host.

There was another thread where we all agreed that with computers being as savvy as they are now that these grass roots incompatibilities should be a thing of the past. The only conclusions are that these companies are short staffed, or they just have bigger priorities, or it's simply not worth the headaches.

With reviews of 10.4.9 being so violently mixed right now, it's almost no wonder that software companies hare struggling to keep up with Apple as well as each other.

What are users to do!?

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:56 pm

toodamnhip wrote:
Shooshie wrote:I guess I'll be holding off on the upgrade for a while. Waves is saying no to it. Here's my reasoning:

••• I prefer to use MAS plugins, but Waves makes no MAS plugins for the Intel Macs yet. That's strike one.
••• So, I use AU, but Waves says don't even use THAT with DP version 5.11. I use AU anyway, version 5.9 on my MacPro with DP. That's strike two.
••• The bases are loaded, Shooshie's up to bat, and Apple pitches a fast ball down the center. It looks like an easy home run and Grand Slam. It's name is 10.4.9. The umpire is Waves, and he says swing at that ball and it's gonna be a strike.
••• everybody knows that on strike three, you're O-U-T!

So I'm gonna just walk this one. I hope we hear from Waves very soon.

Shooshie
Hey Shoosh, long time my friend. I have been busy and when the forum went down, well, I knda forgot about coming here. Then I came back once and I am addicted again. There goes all my effin productivity...it's good to be back though. Anyway, hey dude , what happens to your old masters that used MAS waves Plug Ins when loaded in a system that now uses AU?
Does DP convert so that the plug stll works, keeping all automation etc, or, do does wvaes/DP lose it's mind , not even recognize there was a setting etc? I would guess that if you changed from MAS to AU, something get screwed up in those old masters. You know me dude, always bitching about them masters working into eternity. Batter up!

I'm not opening any old files currently. I'm working on new ones, and I'm not working at all this week or next. (Daughter's home for spring break for 2 weeks... well, one week left now) I've been avoiding that, because if you change a file to AU from MAS plugins, you just have to start over. It doesn't insert the same plugin from the other format. To DP, these are entirely new plugins. It's as if it has never heard of them before.

I'm holding out until Waves comes out with the new MAS for Intel Macs. They're promising it will be soon.

Meanwhile, if I need to open an old file, I create a new mix and start over. That, however, can be a lot of fun, too.

Don't worry... MAS is on its way.

Shooshie

daveyboy · Post by **daveyboy** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:01 pm

toodamnhip wrote:
Shooshie wrote:I guess I'll be holding off on the upgrade for a while. Waves is saying no to it. Here's my reasoning:

••• I prefer to use MAS plugins, but Waves makes no MAS plugins for the Intel Macs yet. That's strike one.
••• So, I use AU, but Waves says don't even use THAT with DP version 5.11. I use AU anyway, version 5.9 on my MacPro with DP. That's strike two.
••• The bases are loaded, Shooshie's up to bat, and Apple pitches a fast ball down the center. It looks like an easy home run and Grand Slam. It's name is 10.4.9. The umpire is Waves, and he says swing at that ball and it's gonna be a strike.
••• everybody knows that on strike three, you're O-U-T!

So I'm gonna just walk this one. I hope we hear from Waves very soon.

Shooshie
Hey Shoosh, long time my friend. I have been busy and when the forum went down, well, I knda forgot about coming here. Then I came back once and I am addicted again. There goes all my effin productivity...it's good to be back though. Anyway, hey dude , what happens to your old masters that used MAS waves Plug Ins when loaded in a system that now uses AU?
Does DP convert so that the plug stll works, keeping all automation etc, or, do does wvaes/DP lose it's mind , not even recognize there was a setting etc? I would guess that if you changed from MAS to AU, something get screwed up in those old masters. You know me dude, always bitching about them masters working into eternity. Batter up!

No, it doesn't convert unfortunately. You have to open a project that's using either the mas or au version, then save the setting within the plugin itself, not under the mini menu on the left of the plug but under the load/save presets area in the waves plugin, Then, insert the other version (mas, or au) and reload the setting from there. My guess is that automation doesn't carry over but I'm not sure. I know this from having both version loaded at one point and then I disabled the au versions because of crashes. Big pain. Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't have kept using the au version and stopped using mas. Who knows.

Timeline · Post by **Timeline** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:59 pm

News flash.

I spoke with Waves Israel today. They tell me they are working feverishly to get all plug working correctly. I mentioned this thread and DP and told them many of us with issues in DP would hold off buying any more Waves products until things get settled. He told me they don't even have DP 5.11 to test with there. I think it was a slip on his part.

That's when I begin to realize Waves might not care about DP comparred with other DAW software.

I think I will have to wait for UA to complete their DeEsser which they told me they were working on.

I really have my doubts about Waves now.

jlaudon · Post by **jlaudon** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:16 pm

Yeah, I think if you checked out what DAWs Waves works with with less glitches and bugs, you can probably find out their priorities - probably Protools (more studios=more money=waves plugins), then Logic/Sonar/Cubase, then maybe DP. I am really surprised they don't have DP 5.11, since they have been doing MAS versions (with what - DP 4?).

Timeline · Post by **Timeline** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:20 pm

Yes, If a MOTU corporate type is lurking around this post i would advise they give Waves a call and update them ASAP.

davedempsey · Post by **davedempsey** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:27 pm

Timeline wrote:News flash.

I spoke with Waves Israel today. They tell me they are working feverishly to get all plug working correctly. I mentioned this thread and DP and told them many of us with issues in DP would hold off buying any more Waves products until things get settled. He told me they don't even have DP 5.11 to test with there. I think it was a slip on his part.

That's when I begin to realize Waves might not care about DP comparred with other DAW software.

I think I will have to wait for UA to complete their DeEsser which they told me they were working on.

I really have my doubts about Waves now.

This is very bad news.
I could see how pre-rendering may not be a popular concept with a company who would prefer you purchased their hardware to host hungry plugs, but I can't for the life of me understand how the latest version of a major DAW platform which has been available for quite some time now is not available to the coders and testers. Let's hope that elsewhere in the Waves corporate structure someone has 5.11 to test with.

This is pure conjecture and follows from something Shooshie has theorised about: It is a possibility that Waves support for MAS may be discontinued in the future. As DP is quite possibly being re-coded (hence all our latest benefits), integration into Core Audio will improve and AU may be the future option for Waves support. With 64-bit OS and apps just around the corner it's unlikely that developers wish to spend resources with a view to the past. There just has to be a lot of new coding going on but they'd better be very careful how this current situation is dealt with. There's a lot of users here who are struggling to work with what's on offer right now. This stuff cost us a lot of money and it's not working as it should.

Timeline · Post by **Timeline** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:36 pm

On the bright side we just found out about this and they just found out about this thread, or at least one guy did. Maybe some good can come of it.

There is a suggestion box on their site. Send this thread into them. The rep suggested this.

If enough do it it's sure to get corporates attention.

Until then Boycott Waves.