is there any merrit to this end of pro tools/logic gossip?

jgest · Post by **jgest** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:40 pm

this was posted on the abelton forum, about apple intending to do away with pro-tools and logic with a new app........

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59645

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:16 pm

Wow-- I've heard nothing of tis before now. Interesting thought, tho.

Personally, I can't imagine Apple dropping Logic altogther:

1. It went from a cross-platform app (Emagic) to a Mac-only app. Some people hate it, some people love it-- but doing away with it entirely doesn't make a lot of sense. They should keep it and improve it, but any announcement of Logic going away is going to create some serious strife among those who thrive on it. Not everyone is going to be that tickled about learning a new app from the ground up. To drop Logic would annoy the heck out of a lot of Mac users to the point where they may drop their Macs altogether-- which could impact Mac Pro sales and marketing impressions negatively.

2. With Logic remaining as the "medium pro" app (to use the one poster's term), Apple might take a cue from Steinberg-- they kept Cubase and rebuilt it from the ground up-- then they came out with Nuendo. I don't think the appearance of Nuendo has cut into the Pro Tools market that significantly. With major studios fully outfitted with PT systems on the Mac platform, it would be a HUGE mistake for Apple to drop PT support where those with the deepest pockets have invested in both Apple and Digidesign products. And if PT is potentially on the chopping block, where does that leave a company like MOTU? Perish the thought.

I think there is indeed room for another major flagship DAW, but for as well as Apple has been doing, I don't think dropping support for a major DAW right now is going to serve anyone very well.

The bottom line is that whatever they come up with is going to have to be flawless. If PT users are indeed the target, then there is going to have to be miraculous support for all plugin formats--- and the risk of using a new app alone is enough to send DAW users away shaking their heads in trepidation. We're nervous enough about every OS update as it is... I'm just thinking of this as though it were DP being called into question and instead of PT or Logic. Doesn't feel too nice-- and it doesn't make a lot of sense, really.

jgest · Post by **jgest** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:05 am

Frodo wrote:Wow-- I've heard nothing of tis before now. Interesting thought, tho.

Personally, I can't imagine Apple dropping Logic altogther:

1. It went from a cross-platform app (Emagic) to a Mac-only app. Some people hate it, some people love it-- but doing away with it entirely doesn't make a lot of sense. They should keep it and improve it, but any announcement of Logic going away is going to create some serious strife among those who thrive on it. Not everyone is going to be that tickled about learning a new app from the ground up. To drop Logic would annoy the heck out of a lot of Mac users to the point where they may drop their Macs altogether-- which could impact Mac Pro sales and marketing impressions negatively.

2. With Logic remaining as the "medium pro" app (to use the one poster's term), Apple might take a cue from Steinberg-- they kept Cubase and rebuilt it from the ground up-- then they came out with Nuendo. I don't think the appearance of Nuendo has cut into the Pro Tools market that significantly. With major studios fully outfitted with PT systems on the Mac platform, it would be a HUGE mistake for Apple to drop PT support where those with the deepest pockets have invested in both Apple and Digidesign products. And if PT is potentially on the chopping block, where does that leave a company like MOTU? Perish the thought.

I think there is indeed room for another major flagship DAW, but for as well as Apple has been doing, I don't think dropping support for a major DAW right now is going to serve anyone very well.

The bottom line is that whatever they come up with is going to have to be flawless. If PT users are indeed the target, then there is going to have to be miraculous support for all plugin formats--- and the risk of using a new app alone is enough to send DAW users away shaking their heads in trepidation. We're nervous enough about every OS update as it is... I'm just thinking of this as though it were DP being called into question and instead of PT or Logic. Doesn't feel too nice-- and it doesn't make a lot of sense, really.

Makes me think of david vs goliath, the bigger you are the harder you fall. I'd hate to see apple fall from grace because they got sucked up in thie napoleon complex and wanted to rule the digital world. Out of principal I don't touch pro-tools or have anything to do with it (unless the big bucks come sniffing around wanting my music). I tried logic once in the os 9 days but never inhaled.

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:21 am

Hey, groover-buds.

Good time for MOTU to make its big move.
You know, take it to the next level.

OK, 5.5 will do just fine, with a sprinkling of ConVerb, character-compression and denoising.
Oh, and a better-specified VI suite and way more presets and...

Oh, yeah, and something for Josh and the hobbit, too.
Weed for Josh and beans for the hobbit oughta keep 'em off your back, so ya'll can spend more time on monkey-requests.

crufty · Post by **crufty** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:34 pm

Ha! I'll probably look like an ass in 6 months or whatever, but

rule #1: Apple is never the cheapest
rule #2: Apple is a branded system integrator, not component innovator

What rule #2 means is that for Apple to release a new product, you have to look around for productionalized components. So the multi-touch daw interface seems like a bit of a stretch to me, as there just doesn't seem to be a lot of the way of hardware suppliers for such a beast.

My bets:

1) Audio card: I'm taking the under. Isn't the apple soundcard called the apogee symphony?

Apple doesn't have a video card, I'd be hard pressed to think they'd want to take on the soundcard market. Seems like a lose-lose scenario.

2) Pt killer devices: I'm taking the under...but only after careful deliberation! I'll give appple this: http://www.mc.com/products/view/index.c ... ype=boards

Going off the video rumors, it's possible there will be some kind of cell daughter-board integration for a new range of "Extreme" products. In other words, we could see, Logic, and Logic Extreme. So if we do get a Logic Extreme, that would be the PT competitor, and would utilize cell processors for specific dsp tasks???

Seems like a real stretch to me--a cell daughterboard is basically a computer on a pci board, with its own memory, 150w power supply requirements, etc. why do that? what a nightmare to support. FAR better to sell more macs that can act as a single, conslidated audio component. HMMMM.

3) Logic going away and getting replaced: I'm taking the under. Leopard is 64 bit operating system. New Mac Pro's are 64 bit arch. Logic 8: 64 bits. This is a harder conversion then it would appear on paper.

While I wouldn't say apple is ignoring the 'pro' market, I'd say its not a focus for 07, though I could be horribly wrong. iphone, appletv, these are products with mass market appeal. Leopard is a competitve advantage across the board, so I'd say it would make sense that an entire wave of upgrades be in the works. Releasing a phone, appletv, etc is hard though. The best and the brightest will be working on those problems...and not pt or 'pro' killers.

Plus, from a corporate sense, doesn't make much sense at all to go after PT. Steve Jobs is beholden to financial institutions and the like, to some degree. It's one thing to explore a new market (ipod, mac tv) or *partner* with an existing market giant (cingular). But take on, head to head, an established leader in what is (comparitvely) a niche market...risky move, and wallstreet doesn't like that too much. Not saying apple is risk adverse, clearly, the aren't, but it does seem pretty atypical behavior (from my perspective reading the funny papers).

My $0.02....

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:16 am

Yeah- "going after" anything established is the wrong approach all the way around. Apple made computers to improve workflow and lifestyle. It didn't have to be successful, and it certainly didn't take over the PC market after 20 years, but it is successful with what it now being reported as a 6% market share-- their best yet.

Jobs finds himself in a precarious position: making hardware on which so much other software is used while walking a thin line with "competing" software. It's almost like smiling in someone's face and shaking their hand while P-ing on their shoes at the same time.

If Apple is thinking of doing anything at all, they should make Logic more Logical and leave it at that.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:21 am

And ya'll wonder why I'm a die-hard PC guy!

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:17 am

Go ahead; strike during a rare moment of weakness, Brad.

That's cold, man.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:56 am

Apple should give MOTU $50 million and their top 5 programmers, tell them to make DP perfect in every way, and ask them to rebrand their stuff "Apple of the Unicorn."

Hey, if we're going to rumorize, let's get jiggy and make rumors that feel great!

Ok, ok... so Apple's going to make a PT/Logic killer. Funny they never say DP killer. Maybe they're afraid to give us the free advertising.

But what would this thing do? Read your mind? So, you walk up to it, hum a few bars of your new song, tell it to add a hook, a bridge, and orchestrate it, then give you a glass master?

If I read between the lines, I see something with Logic's efficiency and DP's interface, with a few enhancements. THAT would be the killer app of this industry. I hope they understand some things, like how truly laughable it would be to create a record in Garageband. MIDI editing in Garageband is like pulling teeth; painful and tedious. Surely they understand that kind of thing, but frankly I don't like using most of Apple's apps. They're too slick. You don't know if it has what you need but it's hidden, or if it's missing entirely. They're always just an option shy of what you really need. Of course, I haven't used Final Cut Pro; maybe that's an exception. Quicktime is sorely lacking in features for something touted as such a professional app, though it IS like a Swiss-Army knife when it comes to conversions.

OH well... I'll believe it when I see it. And I'll be looking for it! Maybe at the next keynote!

Shooshie

billf · Post by **billf** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:11 am

Shooshie wrote:Quicktime is sorely lacking in features for something touted as such a professional app, though it IS like a Swiss-Army knife when it comes to conversions.

Quicktime is more than an end user application, it is an architecture that is cross platform. Here's a good article that helps explain:

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Te ... 0C29C.html

kelldammit · Post by **kelldammit** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:41 pm

with 10.4.9 now out, so we don't have much longer to wait for 10.5. then i guess we'll wait a little more, and see what happens.

i'm not sure how sensible it is for apple to get into cahoots with apogee and roll out the logic/ensemble combo, then turn around and pull the plug on logic? though, i also doubt much anything would really kill protools at this point, anyway...unless digi just did it in. but, if apple reallly REALLLY wanted to try...
they could take:
dp's consolidated window, routing flexibility, and MIDI editing(including "blocks of MIDI"...please!),
true parallel MIDI in/out/internal,
nuendo/samp's object oriented "in the arrangement" audio editing,
a nuendo-ish "real" hardware controller,
logic's plugin efficiency, and distributed processing,
a 64 (or 80) bit (fixed) mixer path,
multiple file type/bitrate/depth in the same project (and bwav of course!),
all the major interchange formats (omf, edl, etc),
latency compensation for outboard effects,
a drum editor similar to metro (drum blocks whos height represents velocity...very ingenious),
sony oxford/altiverb as the "in the box" plugs,
very small footprint (check out the featuresets for reaper and metro, and their footprints compared to anything else),
fast, clean code.
a coffemaker
a hot blonde/redhead/brunette (while i'm dreaming...might as well throw that in!)

THEN, they might be talking. still probably won't kill pt, but...i'd be interested. especially if they called it...
DP6!

kell

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:46 am

kelldammit wrote:THEN, they might be talking. still probably won't kill pt, but...i'd be interested. especially if they called it...
DP6!
kell

Y-y-y-e-e-e-s-s-s Kell!!!
Nice one.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:27 am

billf wrote:
Shooshie wrote:Quicktime is sorely lacking in features for something touted as such a professional app, though it IS like a Swiss-Army knife when it comes to conversions.
Quicktime is more than an end user application, it is an architecture that is cross platform. Here's a good article that helps explain:

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Te ... 0C29C.html

While I've always understood pretty well what Quicktime is all about, that was really an excellent link. And some of the links from that page took me on some very interesting diversions reminiscing of the old Apple vs. Microsoft days.

Shoosh