Composer delivering tracks from DP to HD Music mix

[Joel Walsh]

Looking for some tips on how to deliver our virtual instruments to a music mix for film and TV. The composer uses Digital Performer to write. The mix is done on a ProTools HD3. My experience with latency , MAS, the DP mixer and how much VI's can bog down the composers DP rig have pushed tasking VI's off onto other machines. The lack of solid DAE interoperability in the newest versions of both PT and DP is apparent from reading posts on unicornation.com.

I'm considering a workflow where I hope to:

~ use a ProTools LE rig ( Digi002r PT 7.1 etc) with a session template loaded with as many RTAS instruments as possible.
~ the ADAT outputs of the Digi 002r are sent out to a monitor mixer for a temp mix
~ LE rig doesn't chase so I won't load any tempo dependent RTAS ( Stylus RMX etc.. )
~ use the DP machine to run tempo based VI's ( AU, wrapped VST etc )

~ when the composer is done writing I can kick the PT LE rig into MTC master and set Digital Performer to chase.
~ arm record in corresponding audio tracks for each necessary output for the RTAS instruments on the PT LE rig.
~ set the DP tempo based VI's ( AU, wrapped VST etc ) to ADAT out from our 869 to ADAT input on the Digi 002r
~ record each cue in its correct tempo and timecode location etc in PT
~ deliver these final 24 to 32 time stamped audio tracks in the PT LE session directly to the HD3 mix

Why won't this work ? ... really ... prove me wrong ... I'd hate to set this gear up only to find out it won't work.
It would be great to hear from assistants who are involved in delivering long form ( film TV ) to protoolsHD.
Thanks

[Tim]

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[Tim]

Woah!

I could've sworn there was a reply before mine, and now it's gone.

See what I mean about my head?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

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You got that right!

[Tim]

I posted a reply, but thought better of it.

Been there.

[Joel Walsh]

Basically, I said he needs a consultant. There are so many variables to consider and it seems he may be on a very limited budget (PT LE?) that I am wondering if this is a pro production. I also think he needs a paid consultant to hammer all that stuff out. Free is not gonna work... unless you want to do it? I don't.

Why would you bother posting this? It would have taken the same amount of time to write something constructive. My post is pretty clear about the set of criteria I'd like input on.
I post "free" advice to several on-line tech related communities. Your comment about free advice is typical of someone who feels undervalued. Too bad for you , go cry on someone else's thread.

[m2]

Hmmm, I do that kind of thing often. I would say if you are getting a lot of timing issues I would have the composer record the VI tracks - once the music is approved - to an audio track in DP [one at a time] and then off load all that as stems to PT. It's an extra realtime step for them but nothing that could not be done easily ahead of time. Get some intern type person to do it!! "They'll learn SO MUCH. . "

Do you really need all the separate tracks for post? Seems a bit much I would think you could group the tracks of the then recorded VI stuff to come up with 6-8 composite tracks at mix level stems. I can't imagine a rerecording mixer wanting all that stuff broken out. It's alot to track at a post mix. Even the major motion picture mixes I've sat in on in large stages usually have the entire orchestral recording down to about 16 - 24 tracks of stems. Many are just occasional solo step out parts on a separate track and the majority of the music is in about 6-8 Stereo stems of Orch. I think you could look at the music and find a way to emulate that pipeline.

Just my 2•

Good luck with it! Let us know how you solve it.

[matwell]

I don't think he's trying to make the stems at this point. He's trying to print the multitrack, individual elements that the scoring mixer will mix down to the final music stems.

Joel, regarding the process, here are some minor concerns:

PTLE track count: you will probably want (or already have) the DV Toolkit for timecode features and an increased track count to 48 stereo tracks.

Tempo Maps: if you are creating a new session per cue, then I highly recommend importing the tempo map from DP into PTLE. It will make any editing or pickups much easier.

Other than that, it sounds like you're heading in the right direction. You might want to make a 'test run' and see that the process works for you.

Good luck

[Timeline]

This was all soooo easy back in the dual 24 track 2" lock up dayzz.
Post houses had rooms of Studers with dolbys. so cool, so gone!

Oh... and it sounded great too.

[Joel Walsh]

I would have the composer record the VI tracks - once the music is approved - to an audio track in DP [one at a time] and then off load all that as stems to PT.

The idea is to skip this step. In long form you wouldn't want to bounce tracks in realtime more than nessesary. IE 15min of music x 12 stereo bounces = 3 hours of rerecording. Interns don't get to experiment with this stage of the process as there is little room for error. Often this is where the quality control happens and you wouldn't want a junior guy making several passes and getting bored = mistakes.

Do you really need all the separate tracks for post?

We're delivering to a music mix done on PT HD3. As I have worked directly in designing and building the mix facility for the composer I can make design changes as needed to both the wrtiting setup and the mix setup in order to facilitate a smooth mix. Often we may be required to make changes or fixes on the spot so having access to the original PT LE RTAS VI tracks in the lay-up delivered from the Composer is a real benefit. ProTools has a feature where you can keep tracks in the session but made inactive or a dormant state, they don't loose any of their original settings and can be made active at any time when changes are required in the mix. Once completed the final mix is delivered as stems to post.

[Joel Walsh]

He's trying to print the multitrack, individual elements that the scoring mixer will mix down to the final music stems.

Exactly

PTLE track count: you will probably want (or already have) the DV Toolkit for timecode features and an increased track count to 48 stereo tracks.

Already have .. thanks for the tip though

Tempo Maps: if you are creating a new session per cue, then I highly recommend importing the tempo map from DP into PTLE. It will make any editing or pickups much easier.

This is my weak point that I'm trying to work on lately. I'm still experimenting with our mix session protools templates to get multiple tempi as we mix all the cues in one timeline. DP is great for scoring and lots more too. I work in it all the time when I assist the composer. The tempo features and chunks are really very different than protools. I hope to actually just print an audio click with the layup to cover your point about pickups. We've also discussed running DP on a second computer in the mix room locked to PT in order provide the mixer correct TimeCode to Cue/Bar# correlation and the composer quicker access to changes and printing charts.

[matwell]

This was all soooo easy back in the dual 24 track 2" lock up dayzz.
Post houses had rooms of Studers with dolbys. so cool, so gone!

Oh... and it sounded great too.

You obviously haven't worked on films with multiple (more than 2) tape machines running, and the joys of waiting for all those machines to lock up/rewind/fast forward. Also, good luck on cutting different takes together!

I say good riddance. High sampling rates (96k+), great converters (Genex, etc.)... I'm very happy with the sound quality delivered by high end pro digital gear.

[rockitcity]

Why won't this work ? ... really ... prove me wrong ... I'd hate to set this gear up only to find out it won't work.
It would be great to hear from assistants who are involved in delivering long form ( film TV ) to protoolsHD.

You're going to have some mighty unhappy mixers on a dub stage if you deliver unmixed music tracks for a film mix. I mean, how long does it take to get a good mix of a 3 minute pop song? You can spend days and still not get it right. Your music will most likely get bumped and you'll be sent home until you make it right.

What you need to deliver to the film dub are completed mixes. You can break out parts that might conflict with dialog, such as solo instruments and any vocals. Also it is common to break out any extraneous percussion or horn parts. Just keep in mind what the music is doing. Usually it is supporting the action on screen. In some cases you get a musical montage, where the music is the focus, but usually the music is not the star of the show. The story is.

So, what you need to deliver are final stems as audio tracks. They can be on a DVD for import into a Pro Tools rig, as long as you know the exact start time of the files for each cue. Complete BWAV time stamped files for each cue would be best. Check with the dubbing facility to see what sample rate and bit depth you will need. Usually it will be 48k, 24 bit for an in-the-box Pro Tools mix. However, if you are playing back from a seperate rig, you might be ok with 44.1, which is often preferred for scoring because of the CD compatibility.

As I re-read the original post, if you are in fact prepping tracks for a music mix-down, you can either bring the original DP session (and probably the rig) to the scoring session or print the VI's as mentioned. You could probably do ok with stems for various parts (strings, drums, etc). However, I would definitely not trust translating all the VI's to a PT LE rig, unless you have tried this in advance and feel comfortable with the translation. Just looks like a potential for disaster that could get expensive pretty quickly.

Good Luck.

Bob

[m2]

Ok So is the deal that you are designings the pipeline for the composer? Are you the composer? I thought you were on the post side trying to help the composer get his stuff to you. my bad.. . .

If that is the case AND you are in the process of setting up the studio then my own solution was to use DP as my scoring medium [software] to picture but to run the digital audio on a TDM system instead of the MOTU stuff. Nothing against the MOTU hardware but I had to have PT for all the outside sessions we were getting. This way you are using the DSP of the cards NOT RTAS -which will eventually bog down the CPU if you are using many of VIs and the project is large. RTAS was never really intended for that intense of a situation. It's not as robust as something like TDM.

I run all my TDM plugs and VI in DP I can mix from DP and then I drop it into an PT-HD session for output to the mix stage. I could run a few things in RTAS but I never do. Force of habit I guess. All the Mac really does is the MIDI part of the deal. I would also recommend an outssidde master clock as well to keep everything tight. Like the Big Ben.

See below for my rig. I do a show to picture of 20 minutes of music a week and more in this manner and it all works.. . .most of the time LOL!

Good luck. Let us know what you do!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Basically, I said he needs a consultant. There are so many variables to consider and it seems he may be on a very limited budget (PT LE?) that I am wondering if this is a pro production. I also think he needs a paid consultant to hammer all that stuff out. Free is not gonna work... unless you want to do it? I don't.

Why would you bother posting this? It would have taken the same amount of time to write something constructive. My post is pretty clear about the set of criteria I'd like input on.
I post "free" advice to several on-line tech related communities. Your comment about free advice is typical of someone who feels undervalued. Too bad for you , go cry on someone else's thread.

Seems you are getting some advice after all. Good for you. Sorry you are taking my comments so personally - they weren't even intended for you. That is not a good practice for a professional and your defensive posture speaks volumes. Nevertheless, I will add one suggestion and you might want to memorize it.

In the professional world of production, you have a choice. Select ONLY TWO of these three itmes. You CANNOT have all three, only two of the three. Follow this rule and you will never be surprised by the results:

1) FAST
2) GOOD
3) CHEAP

IOW, you can have it fast and good, but it won't be cheap; You can have it fast and cheap but it won't be good; Or you can have it cheap and good, but it won't be fast.

The advice you are seeking here (in what appears to be a somewhat ambitious project on your part) is fast and cheap. SOME of it IS good, but to keep all your ducks in a row, it really sounds like you need a production coordinator familiar with all this stuff. Even if everyone here provides lots of little pieces, when it starts to fall apart in the final stages, you will end up hiring someone anyway, or abandoning the project, or going to direct to CLD. This is really intended as friendly constructive advice, not bashing you for asking.

I'll ignore your comments about my own self worth. But if you MUST know more, please visit my website.