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Scary out of tune hearing

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Re: Scary out of tune hearing

Postby Julia123 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:25 pm

Shooshie wrote:Now, when I'm mixing, I first mix for equal channels, centered sound. Not the same as mono, but not much different, either. Then I try to see how much stereo space I can impose on that without losing any of the main audio in either ear. Sometimes I have to abandon that approach and just go ahead and mix as I always did. I created a mixer headphone for her that combined all sound in one ear, and gave her the ability to flip phase in one channel. It was complicated with lots of wires, and she never really used it much. She figured she had to learn to compensate, anyway, so why try to avoid it? But I can't help but try first to mix for my little girl, now a dynamic woman who has surpassed me in almost everything. Still, when I reach for the pan knob, it feels like the pain knob. I have to pause a second and remember that there's still a world of folks with both their ears, and that it's right to do that. Then I'm ok, and can create my sound fields. But I still make a version for her, even though she'll never hear most of them.

Shooshie


What an amazing Dad, she is very fortunate to have you! That is so wonderful you care about it to that extent and do what you do thinking of her. I can guarantee there are plenty of fathers out there that don't connect on that level. --Yes I am thinking I am going to miss that feeling of being literally euphoric when I hear my favorite great mixes if this thing doesn't balance out at least to where my ears match somewhat again.

My ears were worse today and now some voices in some situations sound like robots. The good news is my ENT was great. (And she has a friend that I remind her off, who I have met a few times -small world--) There is no indication of fluid causing the problem, and I do have a huge sudden dip in my left ear starting from 500HZ dropping 30DB to what is considered 'mild' at 1000HZ, back up to 2000HZ matching my right ear, then both dropping off together down 30HZ (Moderate) then my right becomes stable after, and my left continues down another 10DB.

I would have thought this would all just be a volume difference, but instead I actually start to hear the 'artifacts' sound where there is the second pitch but still sounds mostly in tune at around A3, then they start to separate more into honkey tonk piano G4, then pitches start to spread all the way to sounding 1/4 higher IN THE LEFT EAR at C6 or so, then here is the wild one-- they are nearly a 1/2 step apart around C7, the bad ear being higher (not lower).

Anyway, she said we should treat it as viral, prescribed a Prednisone regiment, and also referred me to the big league Hearing Specialists (and contacted them for me to ask them to take me right in). They are connected to the major hospital in the area that people come from all over to go to and they let me right it. The Doctor appears to be very good and wanted to see her prescription, which he approved, and also suggested a three day injected steroid treatment with the highest dose that has had favorable results. (from a compounding pharmacy). I agreed of course. The injection was absolutely horrible and for a moment I was considering not doing it again---but I intend to continue now after thinking about how my hearing got worse today before the treatment and there seems to be very little risk with this treatment from what I can find in my internet research. They will do another test tomorrow before the second injection. They don't expect results that quick though but it will be good to compare to today's test.

I found out this evening that this doctor is very respected by other doctors in the area, (small world again, friends husband knows him quite well and they had dinner with the Dr. and his wife recently --what are the odds!?!), so that was a nice surprise and is helping me keep some hope and confidence. The Dr. treating me said the fact that I didn't have what is considered 'sever' loss and that the left ear versus right ear loss is in lower frequency's, I had no dizziness, and I am acting within two weeks of first onset which evidently is HUGE, that my prospects are good. Another thing nagging at me is what if I have something else. Just the weirdness of the extra tones in my ear. All the other tests of middle ear, speech recognition, ear drums etc. looked really good though. They also recommend an MRI to look for a tumor (which happens in 3% of cases, but you can't wait for that or you miss the window for treatment.)

I am thinking I am hearing the harmonics possibly out of tune since the mid notes are being subdued so I am more of the harmonics that now have a higher volume in comparison? But why so out of tune? And why that 'artifact' sounding thing. Maybe there is some internal 'mixing room' in my head stuff happening simply caused by the volume differences between different notes combined with two ears? (I am only moderately up to speed in acoustics if that). Ugghh.

Thanks for all of the comforting comments that let me know I can probably adjust somehow whatever the outcome. I truly appreciate it especially coming from all of you.

Life just does this stuff sometimes and we only have so much control.
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Re: Scary out of tune hearing

Postby Shooshie » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:10 pm

If you separate harmonics from the fundamental and first couple harmonics, they ARE out of tune. The higher you go, the more out of tune they get. We're accustomed to equal temperament, so even hearing pythagorean temperament sounds out of tune to us, especially as it gets further from the home key. That's because thirds, sixths, 5ths, 4ths, etc. are never where we hear them on a piano, but more "perfectly" aligned with the mathematical divisions of the tonic. The problem comes when we hear THOSE notes put together to make intervals. Because they are all tuned perfectly relative to the tonic, they are quite out of tune with each other.

This is guessing, of course, but I'm thinking that since your hearing loss is spotty at this point, and you're not hearing the tonic, most likely, the remaining overtones are all over the place. If you could imagine the tonic, it may help make them sound homogenous.

Another idea is to use headphones. If the upper harmonics are sounded within the ear, without the fundamental, and if you have a fundamental reference point — that is, your mind is fixed to the key you're hearing — then the mind will recreate the tonic. Actually, that might happen acoustically within the ear, in which case it may not work.

Bell Labs learned that about removing the tonic many decades ago, and cut the tonic in transmission of their phone conversations. It saved them bandwidth and made the voices clearer at the same time. I used the effect in concert years ago. By adding a melody in 2 harmonics, leaving out the fundamental and first three overtones, it created an "out-of-body" melody that was spooky in the way it seemed to float over the rest of the sound. You could not hear the harmonics. What you heard was the fundamental and a whole different timbre. When I showed people what was actually making that sound, it floored them. Total disbelief. Keyboard Magazine wrote about it back in April, 1993. Maybe it was April 1994... not sure. They interviewed us before our first tour with that show.

As an audio person and musician, you have access to tools and a "lab" that even your doctors may not have. You might experiment with ways to bring back that sound, based on filtering harmonics. But it may have no effect at all if this is an acoustic phenomenon, not a mental or nerve thing, for your damage sounds nerve related.

I sure wish you well, Julia. Hearing loss is one of those great mysteries of medicine. When my daughter was going through it, they had all kinds of ideas, but they didn't work, and they eventually admitted that most of them rarely do, but they try them in the off chance that they might. That was 20 years ago. Now they may have gene therapy or something. Good luck!

Shooshie
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Re: Scary out of tune hearing

Postby Shooshie » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:03 pm

One more thing. Don't take this as fatalistic, giving up, or negative. It's just reality as I perceived it when we went through this. After you've been to some of the best doctors around, and if they haven't found something that helps, don't keep running up the tab. Either they will find the problem and fix it, or they won't. Unless there's some kind of gene therapy that regrows your auditory nerves, there aren't going to be "better doctors" who know more. Information travels fast these days, and doctors are informed pretty much everywhere at the same levels, with a few exceptions of course. What I'm saying is that at some point you just accept where you are, and live with that. After 20 years, I'm still looking for answers, but my daughter is not. She is comfortable with her monaural life, and that's probably the last thing she's thinking about these days.

I sincerely hope the doctors you are seeing will find answers. They know a lot more these days, so they just may!

Shooshie
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Re: Scary out of tune hearing

Postby Julia123 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:58 pm

This recreating the fundamental without it there is fascinating! Do you recall the cover of the Keyboard Mag issue? I was trying to track it down on Amazon/Ebay but would like to figure out the correct year. My fundamental should still be there, just hidden below the much louder harmonics I am thinking, since it is in the mild loss area, but then those higher ones drop off pretty quick so the balance is just a mess.

I am definitely going to try your test, once I get the stomach for it. I had my third audio test after two shots and no improvement, but no more loss either. The last shot was today and they will test again tomorrow.

Today the older Dr. consulted with me, the original man from the practice. (and gave me my shot not so delicately as the younger one) I asked him if the no change after the second shot was bad, and he stated it is not good, but many people still take days, or weeks, up to about a month where you can claim it is permanent. For some reason, this just seems permanent:-(.

So the cool thing is, he told me what everyone here pretty much said. He said that after 37 years in practice, sound recording engineers with my sort of hearing mess ALWAYS continue mixing! This seems like it may go along with what you were saying Shoosie, he described it as they learn to ignore the stuff that doesn't fit, and fill in or focus on what they know. It is all so hard to image right now with the robot voices, crappy stereo, and dual tuned strings and pianos. But on the other hand, this morning I found my higher piano notes that were so far apart yesterday, not sounding so far apart at first try, until I analyzed it further. I would say I will definitely need a few second opinions on any mixing/writing I do for quite along time though!

Thanks for the warning on not getting sucked into further searching. These Dr.s seem pretty strait forward fortunately. I was suspecting they would want more shots but he seems to be leaving it at three while I continue the Prednisone. And he told me I am not ready for hearing aids and it is better to adjust naturaly, which was great to hear, I was thinking they may suggest I get them.
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Re: Scary out of tune hearing

Postby Shooshie » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:14 am

Hi Julia,

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w6l15xo9c0uc5 ... e.pdf?dl=0

That's a link to the Keyboard Magazine article (April, 1993, pages 36-37), but I'm not sure it will work. Dropbox changed everything a while back, and I no longer know what links will work and what will not. It's not important. The article is about our tour; there is only a brief mention of the effect I created. Actually, he was describing many of my effects, but just scratching the surface, and he described that one incorrectly. (the "bell like" melody is in parallel 6ths an octave and a fifth above the tonic, not a fifth above the tonic)

One interesting thing about the effect is that it only worked live. In the room with those pianos, you heard that effect floating as if some invisible goddess just sat down on top of the whole affair and started playing her ethereal carillon. But it did not work the same way in microphones. Maybe if we'd had time to experiment with a hundred positions we'd have found the answer, but we didn't. When recording, we simply made the best approximation we could of it and dubbed it in.

If the technique could be useful to you at all, it would probably involve a high-pass filter at around 1000 Hz, through headphones. I used to seek a processor that could allow me to adjust individual overtones, but no such processor exists that I know of, and not even Melodyne can successfully split apart those overtones accurately all the time. Only the ear can do that. I don't have high hopes for it helping you much, if at all. I think your doctors are right: all the adjusting has to be on your own. You'll find a new baseline (and maybe a new bass-line) for "normal," and everything will be relative to that.

Shooshie
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Re: Scary out of tune hearing

Postby Julia123 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:32 am

Good news on my out of tune robot ears. A few days ago I woke up and it was significantly better. The frequency thing is still off and there is a slight difference but I am just so grateful to be sitting here with DP open, working on one of the projects that was so devastating to hear so out of whack, and hearing it well enough to be able to work. The robot voices are gone. I am probably adjusting as well but I am not going to seriously test things with headphones in case it is still healing. No more loud restaurants or live bands for me for a few months.

MIDI Life Crisis wrote: Yeah, the specialist didn't find water in your ear, but if it was there and created a slight inflammation (1/4 tone in my case) then the swelling has to go down


For some reason those shots weren't supposed to be so painful but for me when the fluid was injected it was excruciating, making me think the inside canal behind my eardrum was inflamed/tender-- I don't know and the Dr. wouldn't say.

bayswater wrote:I have out of tune hearing.


mikehalloran wrote:Without going into detail, having had a massive stroke and taking the drugs that my doctors think keep me alive has a definite effect on my hearing including pitch. I have learned to compensate the best I can and "hear through" the noises and anomalies presented by my ears and brain.


Shooshie wrote:After 20 years, I'm still looking for answers, but my daughter is not. She is comfortable with her monaural life, and that's probably the last thing she's thinking about these days.


Shooshie


Thanks for all of this. This hearing thing we humans have really does have a huge mental and adaptability component, which makes dealing with this kind of stuff a little easier.
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Re: Scary out of tune hearing

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:07 pm

Julia123 wrote:This recreating the fundamental without it there is fascinating!


Yeah, and in my case the fundamental was waaaay below the piano or organ. More of a rumble. I tune my own piano (and used to tune professionally for dealers). Try tuning a piano when there's a flare-up!

My issues are in my left ear. As an 8th grader, a"friend" decided to smash the piatti right next to my ear as sfffffz level. It ruptured my eardrum. Couldn't be repaired and has plagued me much over the years. Haven't had a bout with it in many years now. My ears are also quite sensitive in flight. For some reason, coming in at night in a longer descent is worse. Almost always super painful.

Turn it into art! 8)
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Re: Scary out of tune hearing

Postby MIDI Life Crisis » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:07 pm

Oh... and what shots are you referring to?
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Re: Scary out of tune hearing

Postby Julia123 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:04 pm

They did direct steroid injections through my ear drum. It may be what helped but the thought is if it was what worked, we would have seen a clear upswing by the third shot, which we didn't, mine was later. I still have a little hole in my ear drum from the shots -- it feels odd but the Dr. says it will heal up fine.

I seen kids do crazy hitting/ banging / yelling etc. in other kids ears so many times, I am surprised permanent damage doesn't happen more often.
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Re: Scary out of tune hearing

Postby cuttime » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:35 am

Glad you are doing better, Julia. I hope you continue to mend.
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