Why is modern pop music so terrible?

The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other off topic discussion.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other matters outside deemed outside the scope of helping users make optimal use of MOTU hardware and software. Posts in other forums may be moved here at the moderators discretion. No politics or religion!!
User avatar
cuttime
Posts: 4291
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by cuttime »

Really, pop is not ALL bad at all. How can you top this?
https://www.space.com/37879-bonnie-tyle ... -2017.html
828x MacOS 13.6.5 M1 Studio Max 1TB 64G DP11.31
User avatar
terrybritton
Posts: 1117
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:45 am
Primary DAW OS: Windows
Location: Elizabeth City, NC
Contact:

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by terrybritton »

cuttime wrote:Really, pop is not ALL bad at all. How can you top this?
https://www.space.com/37879-bonnie-tyle ... -2017.html
And don't miss Space.com's Spotify playlist for the event! :lol:
https://www.space.com/37823-total-solar ... ylist.html

Terry
Computer: Sweetwater CS400v7 Intel Core i7-10700K CPU @ 3.80GHz | 64Gigs RAM | Windows 11 Pro x64 |
MOTU 828 mk3 hybrid

DAWs & Live: MOTU Digital Performer 11.31 | Cantabile Performer 4
Keyboard Synths: Kawai K5000s, Korg Wavestation
Controllers: NI Komplete Kontrol S-88 Mk3 & S-49 Mk2; Maschine Mk3 & JAM;
Akai MPK249 & 225, Alesis QX49, Behringer BCF2000 & FCB1010
Rack Modules: Ensoniq ESQm, Yamaha TX81Z, Wavestation SR

Tutorials: https://youtube.com/@CreatorsMediaTools
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4601
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by stubbsonic »

In a life-shaping conversation with a wonderful musician and upright-bass builder, we talked about how trying to ascribe meaning to music is an over-simplification.

Music expresses something for the artists, and evokes something in the listener. It may have been inspired by some event or concept, and it may evoke an event or concept; but ultimately, the experience of listening is its own vastly complex experience that is connected to the mind and the feelings. In a live performance, if an artist suggests the "subject matter" of the piece, before performing it, I can allow that suggestion to shape my experience, but it doesn't always.

It is, of course, tempting to say that lyrics have meaning-- i.e., they point to something with words. I love beautifully written lyrics (like Peter Gabriel, Imogen Heap, Todd Rundgren), and I like clever lyrics, too. But, there are some songs with very simple lyrics that just hit the bullseye for me, emotionally. And some that are barely noticeable.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by FMiguelez »

mikehalloran wrote: I consider Jackson Pollack the most important artist of the 20th C. and I'll go to the mat with that opinion (as long as there's good food and my glass is kept filled, of course). It's not because of his technical skills (yes, you can take that as a joke) but because, what asked what his work meant, he said it meant whatever you wanted it to mean. It was the viewer who gave meaning to the work, not the artist.
Yes.
I LOVE Jackson Pollock!

And whoever asserts he can make paintings like his, most probably hasn't actually tried doing it. There's so much more in his art than random paint-splashing.

One of my first MOTUNation avatars was a picture of myself with a Pollock in the background at MOMA :)

I think his art is the equivalent in music as Schoenberg, Berg, Webern or even Nono (some of my favourite 20th century avant-garde composers).

If by "going to the mat" you meant "when you die", I'll go with you to the mat thinking Pollock is awesome too :)
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
Gravity Jim
Posts: 2005
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:55 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by Gravity Jim »

stubbsonic wrote:In a life-shaping conversation with a wonderful musician and upright-bass builder, we talked about how trying to ascribe meaning to music is an over-simplification.
Precisely (and that goes for the rest of your post, too).

Art needs no justification. Saying "modern pop music (is) terrible" is nothing but a statement based in one's ego, an attempt to label oneself as intellectually superior to others. (Which is also a crock.)

Music is music. Individuals are affected by it in different ways and for different reasons. I can't listen to Weather Report's "A Remark You Made" without getting teary-eyed, and I'd rather hear Lady Gaga's "Bad Romance" twice in a row than even one song from any one of 50 dreary, serious singer-songwriters. Hearing Lyle Lovett and His Large Band play "If I Had A Boat" live onstage is a more satisfying musical experience for me than hearing "Ein Kleine Nachtmusik" again for any reason. "Walk Away, Reneé" and "Cry Me A River" are the two most complete pop songs of all time. That's how all that music makes me feel. Maybe it doesn't make you feel that way. Fine. But don't tell me it sucks, because it delivers the emotional charge to me and millions of others.

And I'm surely not going to believe you, feel bad about myself or really even give a sweet flip if you proclaim otherwise. If you don't get this, then you have it all wrong.

Seriously, if you can't revel in "Uptown Funk," you're dead. Check Tim Ayres & The Smoking Section (a band of Nashville studio cats) as they add some extended harmonies to it:

https://youtu.be/QRuM2rk2miQ
Jim Bordner

MacPro 5,1 (3.33Ghz 12-core), 32g RAM, OS X 10.14.6 • MOTU DP 10.11 • Logic Pro X 10.2.5 • Waves Platinum, UAD-2, Slate Digital, Komplete, Omnisphere 2, LASS, CineSamples, Chipsounds, V Collection 5[color]
User avatar
FMiguelez
Posts: 8266
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Body: Narco-México Soul/Heart: NYC

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by FMiguelez »

Gravity Jim wrote:
Saying "modern pop music (is) terrible" is nothing but a statement based in one's ego, an attempt to label oneself as intellectually superior to others. (Which is also a crock.)
Hmmmm.. I completely disagree, Jim.
Why do you think it's an attempt to show intelectual superiority?
What prevents it from being an honest opinion?

For instance, I dislike mariachis.

Does that make me a snob or someone who wishes to show intellectual superiority?

Gravity Jim wrote:
Seriously, if you can't revel in "Uptown Funk," you're dead. Check Tim Ayres & The Smoking Section (a band of Nashville studio cats) as they add some extended harmonies to it:

https://youtu.be/QRuM2rk2miQ
So how is saying -"if you can't revel in 'Uptown Funk', you're dead"- any different from saying that -"Pop music is terrible"-?
Isn't that a contradiction?
Why wouldn't that statement make you a person who "labels himself as intelectually superior to others"?

I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. :)
Last edited by FMiguelez on Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by Shooshie »

People have been trying to define art for thousands of years. Any time a definition is considered "correct," it just freezes art locally until someone finally gets tired of it and does something different which then becomes the new definition of art. There are no definitions of art. It's one of those nebulous things like "spirit" that we all seem to recognize, and yet it doesn't come from any one place or idea. It's sort of what makes you go "wow," and that can cover just about anything. Do it a certain way, and it will make you go wow. Do it another way and you get nothing. Recognizing the difference between the two, the wow version becomes art to you. Maybe not to someone else. Because it is impressive, people will copy it. Maybe e even form a "school" around it. Maybe even codify it into a definition that determines whether the society's officials will support anything BUT it. Once that happens, the people are gettting tired of it, and they start finding something else to make them go Wow!


Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21075
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by James Steele »

cuttime wrote:Really, pop is not ALL bad at all. How can you top this?
https://www.space.com/37879-bonnie-tyle ... -2017.html
With this: (Language warning!)

JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.4.1 Sonoma, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
Babz
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: Unspecified

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by Babz »

I got this...

Because the melodies, chord progressions, rhythms, and lyrics -- especially the lyrics-- are really bad.

Other than that, it's great.
User avatar
HCMarkus
Posts: 9713
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:01 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Rancho Bohemia, California
Contact:

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by HCMarkus »

When the news cycle can be measured in Hz, can we expect music to be enduring?

Anyway, as to matters of taste, I refer to a favorite quote:
"I know what I like and I like what I know"

- Genesis; Selling England by the Pound
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15134
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by mikehalloran »

I'm glad we agree on Pollack.

Going to the mat is a wrestling term. In context, it means that a person will go to great lengths to defend an argument and not give in (even if defeated).
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
Gravity Jim
Posts: 2005
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:55 am
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by Gravity Jim »

FMiguelez wrote:
Gravity Jim wrote:
Saying "modern pop music (is) terrible" is nothing but a statement based in one's ego, an attempt to label oneself as intellectually superior to others. (Which is also a crock.)
Hmmmm.. I completely disagree, Jim.
Why do you think it's an attempt to show intelectual superiority?
What prevents it from being an honest opinion?

For instance, I dislike mariachis.

Does that make me a snob or someone who wishes to show intellectual superiority?
You can dislike anything. But you can't call it "terrible" or say "it all stinks the place up," or whatever. There is a good deal to be learned from mariachi music, and especially the vocal pop based in it. My cousin Daniel lived in Mexico for almost 10 years and loves that music. Now that he lives back in the midwest of the US, he still listens to almost nothing else.

You don't have to like it. But you can't say it all sucks. A musician should understand that all kinds of music mean something to someone. If you brand an entire genre as "terrible," then you're essentially saying that the people who DO like it are idiots. That's what I'm saying.

In my experience, really good players seasoned in years of performance or studio work find something to like in everything, or at least something to learn from.

I didn't add it to my iTunes, but I figured out a couple things about arranging and playing guitar in an arrangement from this "mariachi" tune from Breaking Bad:

https://youtu.be/4DPGjjCBcAg
Jim Bordner

MacPro 5,1 (3.33Ghz 12-core), 32g RAM, OS X 10.14.6 • MOTU DP 10.11 • Logic Pro X 10.2.5 • Waves Platinum, UAD-2, Slate Digital, Komplete, Omnisphere 2, LASS, CineSamples, Chipsounds, V Collection 5[color]
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by Shooshie »

"Hating" music can have to do with more than artistry or its value. My first girlfriend hated a particular pop singer (I don't remember who) because she watched her mother being violently assaulted and murdered in her house while that music was playing. Someone else I knew hated rap because he used to get bullied by a gang who played it on their boombox. Likewise, I had some negative connections to some particular music from childhood (Edith Piaf), which later in life became a favorite. Those kinds of things are not rational, not always fixable, and yet completely justified, each in its own way.

Conversely, sometimes our love for a particular artist or genre comes from an incident we experienced, such as the first date with the love of your life. That's the great thing about music. It binds with you emotionally, sometimes in ways that are inexplicable. One doesn't have to explain hating a type of music, while loving it need not make sense at all. It just is what it is, and further exposure or a reversal of fortunes may flip one's feelings about it.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
cuttime
Posts: 4291
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by cuttime »

Shooshie wrote:"Hating" music can have to do with more than artistry or its value. My first girlfriend hated a particular pop singer (I don't remember who) because she watched her mother being violently assaulted and murdered in her house while that music was playing.
Wow. I think that could be straight out of "Clockwork Orange".
828x MacOS 13.6.5 M1 Studio Max 1TB 64G DP11.31
User avatar
cleamon
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:19 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: Why is modern pop music so terrible?

Post by cleamon »

Shooshie wrote:"Hating" music can have to do with more than artistry or its value. My first girlfriend hated a particular pop singer (I don't remember who) because she watched her mother being violently assaulted and murdered in her house while that music was playing. Someone else I knew hated rap because he used to get bullied by a gang who played it on their boombox. Likewise, I had some negative connections to some particular music from childhood (Edith Piaf), which later in life became a favorite. Those kinds of things are not rational, not always fixable, and yet completely justified, each in its own way.

Conversely, sometimes our love for a particular artist or genre comes from an incident we experienced, such as the first date with the love of your life. That's the great thing about music. It binds with you emotionally, sometimes in ways that are inexplicable. One doesn't have to explain hating a type of music, while loving it need not make sense at all. It just is what it is, and further exposure or a reversal of fortunes may flip one's feelings about it.

Shooshie
So true. When my wife was pregnant with our first child, we listened to a particular album all the time. She had morning sickness very bad. Even to this day, 40+ years later, if I play ANY song from that album she gets nauseous.
----------------------------------------------
Chuck
iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, 2017)|| 16GB Ram || OS/X 10.14.6 || Motu 828MkII || Steinberg UR242 || DP8.07
Macbook Pro (Retina, 13-inch), 2.7 GHz i5, 8GB Ram
Post Reply