Study sees and predicts people's decisions to buy music...

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HCMarkus
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Re: Study sees and predicts people's decisions to buy music.

Post by HCMarkus »

The brain activity in each participant was the same when they were listening to music that they ended up purchasing, although the pieces they chose to buy were all different... These results help us to see why people like different music -- each person has their own uniquely shaped auditory cortex, which is formed based on all the sounds and music heard throughout our lives.

- Dr. Valorie Salimpoor
I know what I like and I like what I know.

- Genesis
Surprise, surprise.
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Re: Study sees and predicts people's decisions to buy music.

Post by stubbsonic »

daniel.sneed wrote:Well, FMiguelez, you can call me paranoiac if you want, that's ok for me too. But what is this sentence about, if not music marketing?
"what happens in our brain when we decide to purchase a piece of music when we hear it for the first time?"
Um. Did I miss something? I didn't hear FMiguelez call you paranoid.

You ask what that sentence is about. The first phrase, "What happens in our brain..." That is what it is about. With your focus on the verb "purchase"-- you seem to be assuming that the purpose of that research is to help someone sell something. But I'm assuming you didn't read the article, or you read it with those "goggles" on.
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Re: Study sees and predicts people's decisions to buy music.

Post by stubbsonic »

Gravity Jim wrote:Cool find, FMiguelez.

Lisa and I have an excellent source of consciousness research: my uncle Robert Buckley, MD. A psychiatrist formerly in private practice, he spent the latter half of his career both as a working ER doctor and administrator at San Francisco's PES (Psychiatric Emergency Services), and is now retired here in Sonoma County, where he runs a small scale farm, raises chickens, and spends many evenings discussing the nature of consciousness with Lisa and I, along with his wife, science teacher and former head of the Berkeley Schools science department Magi Discoe.

Thanks to our close relationship and his uncanny ability to explain super-complicated ideas in simple terms, Lisa and I came to understand a large bit of consciousness theory along these same lines. The ideas that we don't actually make our own choice, the so-called "User Illusion," is something we accepted and began incorporating into our own personalities well over a decade ago.

So, we are acutely aware that when people are exposed to this idea - that you're not actually driving this bus, you're just in a seat with a pretend steering wheel to keep you busy - they are naturally pretty upset by it. The frontbrain has spent your whole life telling you that it was "your" idea to buy that record, it was "you" that played it for all your friend, and that "you" have a relationship with the music in question. Which is all entirely true, in our view from the child's seat. But your consciousness doesn't really run things... it simply needs to believe it runs things. This is an evolutionary development that allows us to possess skills like extreme long-term memory and shared language without going batshit crazy or killing ourselves in despair.

Oh, yeah, this definitely upsets the apple cart, making a mess of a whole bunch of cherished ideas. But the truth is the truth. And simply booing and hissing doesn't make this fact of human consciousness go away.

Don't reject it out of hand. Take this Gordian knot and roll it around in your hands. You may begin to find that all the ideas that cause you anxiety and discomfort arise from beliefs you an no longer hold if you can accept this basic truth.

We are merely great apes with enormous brains. We look like them, we act like them, and our limbic system is no more complicated or developed than a chimpanzee (to test this theory, get ripping drunk and then watch what you do), and that 90% of your brain that you're "not using?" It's working constantly to drive the bus.

And while Oliver Sacks did a fine job of popularizing neurology, and while "Musicophilia" is a fun read, it's pretty much his weakest book in terms of science. To really start getting your mind blown, I'd suggest:

Chimpanzee Politics by Frans de Waal
The User Illusion by Tor Norretranders
This post is awesome.

When I was in college, I took an Intro to Philosophy course, which explored the concept of free will. I spent lots of quality time mulling that over and discussing with friends. I ended up arriving at the same position you describe above. It has remained both a strangely liberating understanding, and strengthened my compassion for others.
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Re: Study sees and predicts people's decisions to buy music.

Post by Gravity Jim »

stubbsonic, thank you and my appreciation to you as well. I don't meet a lot of people who have done the hard work required to accept what you and I know about free will. But you're right... it is liberating, and makes one far more compassionate toward others.

To go with this idea, it is further liberating to read a little about the way of Zen. If you haven't already, I'd recommend a copy of Zen Flesh, Zen Bones as translated by Paul Reps. No zazen-style meditation is required: just carry these stories and koans around in your head for a while, and in some moment down the road, you will be enlightened. (I only phrase it that way because so many of the stories end with the phrase, "In that moment, he was enlightened.")
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Re: Study sees and predicts people's decisions to buy music.

Post by stubbsonic »

Thanks. I've added all three books to my "to read" list.
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Re: Study sees and predicts people's decisions to buy music.

Post by Gravity Jim »

HCMarkus wrote:
The brain activity in each participant was the same when they were listening to music that they ended up purchasing, although the pieces they chose to buy were all different... These results help us to see why people like different music -- each person has their own uniquely shaped auditory cortex, which is formed based on all the sounds and music heard throughout our lives.

- Dr. Valorie Salimpoor
I know what I like and I like what I know.

- Genesis
Surprise, surprise.
Folk wisdom isn't true until some kind of science demonstrates what's really going on. We all, including these researchers, know that human beings enjoy things they have enjoyed before. But why? And why specifically when we are talking about music?
Jim Bordner

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HCMarkus
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Re: Study sees and predicts people's decisions to buy music.

Post by HCMarkus »

Gravity Jim wrote:Folk wisdom isn't true until some kind of science demonstrates what's really going on.
I have to disagree to an extent here Jim. Without scientific confirmation, folk wisdom can still be accurate; absent understanding of causation, observation may reveal truth. The fact that science allows us to understand the why behind that truth is reassuring because, of course, not all folk wisdom is true. (He says, throwing salt over his shoulder).

I didn't intend to dis the referenced article; I found it interesting in the sense that we can now point to dopaminergic reward based on how the auditory cortex was shaped by each listener's experience as the foundation for preference in music. But, at least at this early stage of our understanding, it appears the value of this research lies primarily in confirming humans' well-known bias toward the familiar... folk wisdom that was and remains true whether or not the scientific understanding exists.

PS: It's not marketing... yet.
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Re: Study sees and predicts people's decisions to buy music.

Post by FMiguelez »

Gravity Jim wrote: ... We are merely great apes with enormous brains. We look like them, we act like them, and our limbic system is no more complicated or developed than a chimpanzee (to test this theory, get ripping drunk and then watch what you do), and that 90% of your brain that you're "not using?" It's working constantly to drive the bus....

[SNIP]... I'd suggest:

Chimpanzee Politics by Frans de Waal
The User Illusion by Tor Norretranders
That was an awesome post, Jim.

Thank you too for the reading recommendations. They are now in ever-growing my reading list.

I think I'll need 3 life times to read and understand everything I want :(
daniel.sneed wrote:Well, FMiguelez, you can call me paranoiac if you want, that's ok for me too. But what is this sentence about, if not music marketing?
"what happens in our brain when we decide to purchase a piece of music when we hear it for the first time?"
So now I called you "paranoiac"?

Please quote me doing so, because I do not remember ever calling you that...

I have to agree with Stubbsonic... It's almost as if, for some strange reason, the very mention of the word "purchase" prevents you from understanding the article and ITS CONCEPT, and what is was discovered, and its results, and its meaning, and the fact that they could make reliable predictions based on their hypothesis... If there is something this article was NOT about, it was marketing. The "purchasing" part was just the indicator that their hypothesis was correct> They purchased certain music only when certain patterns and brain activity was seen in certain areas. That's all.

That doesn't sound like marketing to me. Those actions are pretty much what science does on a daily basis, my friend.
Gravity Jim wrote:stubbsonic, thank you and my appreciation to you as well. I don't meet a lot of people who have done the hard work required to accept what you and I know about free will. But you're right... it is liberating, and makes one far more compassionate toward others.
Oh, yes.
It IS liberating.
But like you say, some hard work needs to be done to understand these concepts. And it's totally worth the effort, not only because they are fascinating, but because that is the only way to understand how nature works and the road to intellectual FREEDOM and knowledge.
HCMarkus wrote:
Gravity Jim wrote:Folk wisdom isn't true until some kind of science demonstrates what's really going on.
I have to disagree to an extent here Jim. Without scientific confirmation, folk wisdom can still be accurate; absent understanding of causation, observation may reveal truth.
It can be roughly accurate, but the ONLY way to be reasonably sure about the validity of the claim, folk or otherwise, is by TESTING the claim to its destruction or confirmation, as I think you 'd agree, and that's pretty much on science's court side.

I also think that most "folk" wisdom is incorrect, or incomplete, in the best of cases. Nature, as it turns out, is NOT intuitive at all. Not only it is counter-intuitive, it can defy our capability to actually understand it, even at both extremes "of the scale", i.e, quantum physics and Relativity.

Lots of people claim things and come up with folk explanations. But if we really want to KNOW about it, we must test it, and that means using the scientific method.
HCMarkus wrote: The fact that science allows us to understand the why behind that truth is reassuring because, of course, not all folk wisdom is true. (He says, throwing salt over his shoulder).
Not to nit pick, but science tells us more about "how" things work. "Why" is more like philosophy, since it has other implications.
HCMarkus wrote:I didn't intend to dis the referenced article; I found it interesting in the sense that we can now point to dopaminergic reward based on how the auditory cortex was shaped by each listener's experience as the foundation for preference in music. But, at least at this early stage of our understanding, it appears the value of this research lies primarily in confirming humans' well-known bias toward the familiar... folk wisdom that was and remains true whether or not the scientific understanding exists.

PS: It's not marketing... yet.
I'll see if I can find an older study where scientists could predict more complicated things about their test subjects just by measuring their brain.
I remember this study was one of the first used to demonstrate how we only have "free will" by illusion, since they could predict the results before the individual was even aware of what his "decision" would be.

All this science is in its infancy, but the preliminar results are mind blowing. In the future, laws and rules will change, and mental illness will be treated for what it really is, given that we really are no more than sacks of meet governed by the whims of our brain chemistry. I like to say it's the ultimate puppeteer :D
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Re: Study sees and predicts people's decisions to buy music.

Post by HCMarkus »

FMiguelez wrote:
HCMarkus wrote:
Gravity Jim wrote:Folk wisdom isn't true until some kind of science demonstrates what's really going on.
I have to disagree to an extent here Jim. Without scientific confirmation, folk wisdom can still be accurate; absent understanding of causation, observation may reveal truth.
It can be roughly accurate, but the ONLY way to be reasonably sure about the validity of the claim, folk or otherwise, is by TESTING the claim to its destruction or confirmation, as I think you 'd agree, and that's pretty much on science's court side.

Lots of people claim things and come up with folk explanations. But if we really want to KNOW about it, we must test it, and that means using the scientific method.
Scientific method is preferred, but not always available in the moment. In such cases, intuition and experience rule the day, and folk wisdom is often better than no wisdom. Humanity is moving along a path; even assuming we can get there, we cannot jump to complete knowledge. We build upon that which comes before.
FMiguelez wrote:
HCMarkus wrote: The fact that science allows us to understand the why behind that truth is reassuring because, of course, not all folk wisdom is true. (He says, throwing salt over his shoulder).
Not to nit pick, but science tells us more about "how" things work. "Why" is more like philosophy, since it has other implications.
Point taken.
FMiguelez wrote:All this science is in its infancy, but the preliminary results are mind blowing. In the future, laws and rules will change, and mental illness will be treated for what it really is.
We can only hope that future changes are positive, not reactionary. And we can also hope that, as the science becomes more refined, it is not used irresponsibly, i.e. surreptitious marketing/influencing.
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Re: Study sees and predicts people's decisions to buy music.

Post by daniel.sneed »

FMiguelez wrote:[...] So now I called you "paranoiac"?
Please quote me doing so, because I do not remember ever calling you that... [...]
FMiguelez, yes, I did allow you to call me paranoiac, while you did not.
Isn't that the best proof I am?

You're right when you say I overlooked at the *purchase* and *buy* words. Probably for they bring me in a certain mood, while talking about music.
But, after all, they do lay in the tittle of the subject, and in the introducing lines of the study.

BTW, I guess it may be difficult, for me, to go on, cause of the no-politics rule of this board.
But, maybe talking together, in a good day and in good place...
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