When enough really is enough

[Robert Randolph]

Ok Robert Randolph good for you addressing the post point by point with a series of rationalizations for the BS. Are you convinced now? What your doing is simply amplifying the obvious. You're not listening man! Did you hear someone call for a self anointed bug czar?

So yeah a few seasoned pros are calling you a whiner. Asking you to post that crap in the whiners area. So pull up your big boy shorts and grow a pair and quit whining or take it to the babies table.

Again what you do is polarizing. Not all of it but some of it... Capiche?

Come on, waxman. That is totally uncalled for. Now it seems YOU are the one who is whining.

Do you really feel so strong about this (mis)perceived negativity from Robert? He challenged you to cite all those "negative" posts... Did you find any?

Personally, I think Robert is one of the most helpful members of the community. Just read some of his posts. Critiquing and pointing out DP's flaws is not negativity. It is simply a heads-up to MOTU to fix bugs or broken things.
He clearly does not need me defending him, it's just that you guys are close to painting him with a giant straw man brush, and it's not fair.

Come on, guys!

RR quotes:
"In fact, if DP was doing something other than this then it was a very poor design to begin with and this isn't much of a feature. "
"At best this puts DP on par with how nearly every other DAW works."
"I've had DP crash so hard"
After a glowing report by djwizprod...
RR writes... "How does the same project run in 9.02?"
"DP 9.1 isn't amazing. DP 9.02 was broken if the performance of other major DAWs is to go by."
"We are now on par with everyone else. Hooray? "
"Back to 9.02 for now I guess. What a mess ""
"I also don't understand why it matters if you've used the feature or not. Seems like a rather strange thing to mention."[/b]
"if the program wasn't bugged.... well, that's not pleasant."

That's all from one thread. It's the same tone all the time...

FM it's the Editorializing Not ALL but some of it. I'm asking the guy to step down as the self appointed Negative Nancy. It's polarizing and not helpful... at least put it in the area it belongs... bitch section...

Thank you for doing that.

2 of them I definitely was upset, which I think is somewhat reasonable considering I kept having DP crash. The rest I have trouble understanding how you feel that I was being particularly negative.

Please note that despite that, I've already spent dozens of hours of my own free time with other users tracking down performance issues and bugs both public and private. I'm in contact with MOTU regarding some issues as well.

Perhaps there's some sort of internet tone thing missing here. I'll be more careful how I phrase things in the future.

---

I don't understand the bug czar thing at all. I posted a thread asking if folks thought it was a good idea or not. Even MLC eventually said he was ok with the idea. James stickied the thread and shoosie has been exceptionally supportive. If someone else wants to do it, that's great! It's a lot of work that I wouldn't mind not doing.

If you or anyone else thinks that there's a problem with it, there's a discussion thread where I am very open to criticism and suggestions. I have an open question there now on how to improve it, feel free to contribute. I'm just trying to help make the forum and DP better.

Quite honestly, I'm really confused about that. I've never been in a software community that harbored any sort of malice towards someone for testing, tracking and posting workarounds for bugs.

[Shooshie]

It's a matter of what anyone has staked in the game. For example, TooDamnHip is easy for a lot of people to ignore when he carries on about something not working, because 2Dam uses more tracks, automation, and real-time features than just about anyone. It's obvious he's not going to drop all that power and go to another DAW, so it's easy for someone to say "well, that boy oughta get real and quit overloading the software! He's just doing more than it's supposed to do!"

But I've been where 2Dam is. I know that once you reach a certain load, DP starts balking. It's made to keep the audio safe, so it starts sacrificing other functionality before it fails the audio. That makes it hard to move faders, change windows, scroll, or do anything else. Still, when you see it all working, when that automation is moving about 90 faders, and plugins are coming alive or going bypassed, controls are moving, and the whole thing is sounding amazing, it's truly a wonder to watch and hear DP in action. You can see where it could be improved if they would just tweak this or that, but it's so hard to get it done. After all... you're guilty of overloading it! So, I understand when 2Dam starts complaining. But I know he loves this app. He's not going anywhere.

I think it's the perception that someone is only here until they get fed up, then on to greener pastures, rather than staying to get it fixed and worked out, that causes the old-guard to get riled. Believe me, I understand that feeling, but it's a perception, not necessarily a fact. In this case, I think people have severely misjudged Robert.

Robert has a very direct way of writing. He doesn't see the need to filter what he's experiencing, so he says something quite directly, often citing comparison with other DAWs with which he's familiar. We all have our quirks. I write 10 page tomes. You can always scan it or skip it, but it takes more time to edit it than write it, so I usually leave it as I wrote it.

When you don't like the sound of what you're reading, try to get in the other guy's head. In Robert's case, that would be a pretty capacious place to explore, because he's a smart guy. But it doesn't take long to realize that he's trying pretty darned hard to help make DP better. Trust me, that bug thread is a freaking LOT of work. Just the ones I've posted were very hard to do, but they made it so EASY to post tech links at MOTU.com.

I believe we're on to something with the thread. USE it when you see a bug. Just putting things in its format will focus your thoughts and force you to come up with a way of saying it that will make sense to the guys at MOTU, making their job a lot easier. Which do you think they like reading more? A tech link with all the steps neatly laid out? Or "when I click the dealy it goes Phhht!"

Give Robert some cred for making us a little better understood by the folks who make our stuff!

Shoosh

[BKK-OZ]

...So yeah a few seasoned pros are calling you a whiner. Asking you to post that crap in the whiners area. So pull up your big boy shorts and grow a pair and quit whining or take it to the babies table...

Calling out your BS here.

I can't stand this sort of wannabe tough guy bully-boy machismo hectoring.

You could have said what you wanted to say without the taunts, the sexist cheap shots and the rest.
Bleh.

[James Steele]

...So yeah a few seasoned pros are calling you a whiner. Asking you to post that crap in the whiners area. So pull up your big boy shorts and grow a pair and quit whining or take it to the babies table...

Calling out your BS here.

I can't stand this sort of wannabe tough guy bully-boy machismo hectoring.

You could have said what you wanted to say without the taunts, the sexist cheap shots and the rest.
Bleh.

Agreed.

[James Steele]

Guys, cut the crap! It's not the 1990s anymore, and our jobs with DP are safe. You don't have to gang up on anyone.

Robert isn't the self-appointed bug czar. He asked if anyone would like a sticky thread where we could post bugs, and the support was there. He volunteered to do it, and it's a lot of work. We post them and he corroborates them.

I understand the sensitivity to unfiltered criticism of DP, and I've jumped on people before, too, most recently Robert! And I was wrong. We used to have to fight to put food on our table with DP, because there were so many idiots out there who thought only ProTools was "pro," and they had the producers convinced that only PT would do the job. We wanted the luxury of using DP, either as a front end to AudioMedia cards, or, later, as native audio software. People in the know understood. But those studio wannabes could make life difficult.

We saw disinformation being fired from cannons at producers and others who had money to hire but didn't give a crap, so they just chose a PT studio and figured they were getting "the best." That was happening then. But now native audio is as powerful... well... almost, as dedicated cards, and in many ways a lot more flexible. We don't have to battle stupidity and misinformation the way we used to. Oh yeah, it's still out there, but it's not the menace it once was.

In any case, Robert isn't a troll and isn't shooting misinformation. He's just voicing frustration with what we all have gotten immune to: DP isn't always great after the first releases of something. Still a great DAW, but not all versions are created equally, you know? Lay off! Act our ages. Wait... no, don't do that. Act about 15 years younger.

Shoosh

I agree wholeheartedly with Shooshie here. I also think there have been flames firing from all directions and few are blameless here. I don't have time to wade into these things and read entire topics and try and figure out who offended who first, etc. I'll just delete entire topics when it gets that contentious. All parties need to just DROP IT already.

[waxman]

Thanks Shooshie and James. Seriously to Robert and to everyone offended please forgive me...

Ok back to my dog dish...

[waxman]

Thank you for doing that.

2 of them I definitely was upset, which I think is somewhat reasonable considering I kept having DP crash. The rest I have trouble understanding how you feel that I was being particularly negative.

Please note that despite that, I've already spent dozens of hours of my own free time with other users tracking down performance issues and bugs both public and private. I'm in contact with MOTU regarding some issues as well.

Perhaps there's some sort of internet tone thing missing here. I'll be more careful how I phrase things in the future.

---

I don't understand the bug czar thing at all. I posted a thread asking if folks thought it was a good idea or not. Even MLC eventually said he was ok with the idea. James stickied the thread and shoosie has been exceptionally supportive. If someone else wants to do it, that's great! It's a lot of work that I wouldn't mind not doing.

If you or anyone else thinks that there's a problem with it, there's a discussion thread where I am very open to criticism and suggestions. I have an open question there now on how to improve it, feel free to contribute. I'm just trying to help make the forum and DP better.

Quite honestly, I'm really confused about that. I've never been in a software community that harbored any sort of malice towards someone for testing, tracking and posting workarounds for bugs.

Forgive me Robert I was over the top... You don't owe me an explanation. What I was doing was not edifying or helpful to anyone. Keep doing your thing man. Sorry for the smack...

[James Steele]

Geez... you guys continue to impress me and make me so proud of our little community here. I'm serious.

[HCMarkus]

Geez... you guys continue to impress me and make me so proud of our little community here. I'm serious.

The reason I am here. See above.

[Phil O]

Phew!!!! What the heck just happened here?
Anyhoo, getting back to the OP:

The references to the "old days" I put in to
remind that people got things done with what
now seems primitive.

David, I agree with you...in part. I sometimes feel the need for faster workflow especially if the work is flat rate and my $$/hr is dependent on time spent, but there's another side to this coin. Most of my work is charged at an hourly rate. If I'm TOO efficient, I'm shooting myself in the foot. I'm not saying I'll drag out a job just to make more money. I'll try and work efficiently and give the client a good deal, but if I need to use a workaround in DP that takes me a little longer, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. But, on the otherhand, I still need to remain competitive.

We can do things so much faster and (in some cases) so much better today than the old days. Nostalgia is great, but I have no desire to go back to magnetic tape and mixing on the fly. So is it really enough? Some day people will refer to mixing in a DAW as the good old days.

Phil

[HCMarkus]

I love performing a part top to bottom; the expressive flow and dynamics allow a tune to breath and be heard as fresh from beginning to end. OTOH, some clients want me to cut and paste once I have a verse and a chorus sorted. And some musical styles demand the repetition. So I guess it just depends.

Regardless, the foundations underpinning the best mixes are great arrangements.

[mikehalloran]

Most of my work is charged at an hourly rate. If I'm TOO efficient, I'm shooting myself in the foot.

Most of us charge a minimum for that reason among others. Smart clients know that the minimum goes out the window once they make requests not specifically covered in the bid.

I love performing a part top to bottom; the expressive flow and dynamics allow a tune to breath and be heard as fresh from beginning to end.

My favorite projects are always with artists who prefer to work this way. I love recording live especially.

I am still amazed how much can be fixed in post with modern DAWs. I've performed sonic miracles that were undreamt when certain live tapes were first recorded.

DP's work flow and editing capabilities are not just the devil I am used to; it comes closest to the way I now think.

[Phil O]

DP's work flow and editing capabilities are not just the devil I am used to; it comes closest to the way I now think.

That one sentence says a lot. I suspect I'm at that stage as well but I've never articulated it as well as you just did.

Phil

[Robert Randolph]

Phew!!!! What the heck just happened here?
Anyhoo, getting back to the OP:

The references to the "old days" I put in to
remind that people got things done with what
now seems primitive.

David, I agree with you...in part. I sometimes feel the need for faster workflow especially if the work is flat rate and my $$/hr is dependent on time spent, but there's another side to this coin. Most of my work is charged at an hourly rate. If I'm TOO efficient, I'm shooting myself in the foot. I'm not saying I'll drag out a job just to make more money. I'll try and work efficiently and give the client a good deal, but if I need to use a workaround in DP that takes me a little longer, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. But, on the otherhand, I still need to remain competitive.

We can do things so much faster and (in some cases) so much better today than the old days. Nostalgia is great, but I have no desire to go back to magnetic tape and mixing on the fly. So is it really enough? Some day people will refer to mixing in a DAW as the good old days.

Phil

For me, I feel like it's my duty to a client, friend or fellow bandmate to be as efficient as possible. Yes it can reduce income in some circumstances, but in the long run I've found that people will come back to you with far more frequency when they know they can get it done today when everyone else says tomorrow.

When working with a band or another musician collaboratively, speed can make a huge difference in the creative flow in the room. Capability of trying out ideas or re-hashing ideas also can be a big deal.

There is another level for me where I often have someone standing next to me, or sitting behind me while I work on something. It can be quite embarrassing when someone asks 'Why is it taking so long, dude last week did this in 10 minutes' or the dreaded 'Am I paying for this time?'. I envy you guys that can do everything alone in your own black box, but that isn't reality for everyone.

Annnddd... I'm also a very curious person. Efficiency, ergonomics and workflow are all exceptionally intriguing to me. Likewise bugs, being the natural enemy of these things, also become a focal point of my interest.

Anyway.. these things are primarily why I use DP. Yeah it's missing some cool features from other DAWs, but overall I can work much faster with it. That doesn't stop me from wanting to be better every single moment I'm doing something though.

[Phil O]

I hear you, Robert. But, like I said, I don't drag my feet for the sake of making more money. I just don't freak out if something took me an extra minute because my software isn't as fast as the other guy's. That was my point.

As far as "The dude last week did this in ten minutes" is concerned - I wouldn't listen to that nonsense. My reply would be something like, "Do you want it done fast, or would you like it to sound good? 'Cuz you ain't gonna get both, not from me or anyone else, no matter what they tell you."

My studio is built in the basement of my home. Elegant it ain't. No fancy waiting room with receptionists. No great view of the seaside. No hor d'oeuvres. Just good engineering (and good coffee). People who come to me know I'll give them a great product at a fair price. Some of my work involves fixing what other studios have botched - and I've developed a reputation for that. I've never been accused of taking too long, so for me this isn't a problem. Just sayin'

Coffee?

Phil