When enough really is enough

[Robert Randolph]

Knowing a problem is or isn't impacting other users is relavent in troubleshooting.

Impact... not relevant at all. If you don't use it, it doesn't impact you. No point involving yourself in the discussion. There's many ways that a bug can have no impact on a large portion of users and still be very important to a small selection of users.

If you can replicate the bug or not, regardless if you have encountered it or would ever encounter it, that is useful.

Non sequiturs about what it was like using tape, the quality of musicians/music or how things used to be without that feature can potentially increase the frustration when your workflow is impacted by a bug.

[FMiguelez]

I'm with you on this one, Robert.

My observation is that:
Some members are tough. One needs to convince them of bugs or workflow issues, and be patient and thorough with them. It's not always easy. But most of these tough members are almost always fair, though. Our own dear Shooshie comes immediately to mind

It has taken me sometimes more than 3 entire pages on a topic to convince him of an issue, but when/if that happens, he will support you and your issue, and sometimes even make it his own. I must add that he is not always convinced, though

But I must say I'm used to it, and I actually like it and appreciate it. It's good when someone questions or challenges us. It keeps us sharp and focused, and one can learn of alternative ways or different techniques to achieve the same result, which is always appreciated, as long as one does not feel "dismissed" or that one's issue is "not important". That's the key!

I often times come off as "a little dramatic" due to my frustration. I'm glad most of you take that as simply a "temporary personality trait" , or that I let the drama permeate out of the music sometimes

[Robert Randolph]

I'm with you on this one, Robert.

My observation is that:
Some members are tough. One needs to convince them of bugs or workflow issues, and be patient and thorough with them. It's not always easy. But most of these tough members are almost always fair, though.

I think that this should be bolded, because I totally agree.

I don't think anyone here is doing this to be purposefully negative, rude, mean or anything of the sort. I do think it's a bit of empathy lacking in some situations. It's very easy to forget how engrossing a workflow hurdle can be, and how frustrating it is.

I'm just trying to point out that this particularly style of commentary isn't as helpful as it intends to be.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Knowing a problem is or isn't impacting other users is relavent in troubleshooting.

Impact... not relevant at all. If you don't use it, it doesn't impact you. uld ever encounter it, that is useful.

Really? And you want to be our "Bug Czar?"

[waxman]

I don't know about other people, but I'm annoyed by 2 things:

1. Old bugs that weren't fixed
2. New bugs that were introduced.

On my system here (and it's definitely not just me), but DP 9.1 has more bugs, crashes way more frequently and performs much worse than 9.02.

It's great that things work for you, but there's plenty of folks that don't have things working great. A bit of understanding goes a long way here.

Robert, why do you think people don't understand you? My post wasn't about you. It was about doing the best with what you have. Including the supposed bugs.

I understand that you may be feeling personally attacked by a post like this. I guess it touches a sore spot with you. It's not my intention.

My attitude is...there is always a way. Man went to the moon and built the pyramids, we can certainly "deal" with working with audio software. In fact I think it's a good exercise to come up with workarounds for problems...it's good for the brain cells (literally) and soul. If I run into issues, I prefer to come up with alternative solutions.

Whining about bugs or issues doesn't solve them. You still have to deal with them until they're fixed. When you find your workarounds and get on with your music, you feel better. Or you should.

I don't think that people don't understand me. I think that anyone that is having trouble with the software should have a bit of extra empathy exercised towards them.

I simply dislike when there are issues and people show up to say, "Oh, that doesn't affect me" or "I've never used that feature anyway". It's almost like taunting someone that fell down a well.

There have been a few posts like this (both by you and others), and I understand that you specifically are trying to be constructive. However if you consider it from the point of view of the person having issues, it's really frustrating to see that. We all have different workflows, work with clients of varying skill and requirements, have different systems, work in different locations, used DP for different feature sets and more. I don't think that there's ever a time where it's a good idea to do anything that may be perceived as discounting another user's experience. Even if that's not your intention, the situation and mental state of the other party needs to be considered.

So I suppose my overall point is that I understand that you're trying to be positive and inspiring in your own way, but if you consider it from the other side... it can very easily come off as quite irritating.

Robert sorry but I'm calling BS. It's not about your duty or your feelings being compromised.

A few year ago James Steele and Shooshie created another area for DP posts called Troubleshooting and Criticisms specifically to deal with this issue. You see what happens is a topic is started like "DP 9.1 Is Here" in the "Usage, Techniques, Tips and Optimization."

A person like myself or others makes a positive report DP 9.1 is working great and virtually eliminates latency. Then in come the self appointed rebuttal police with what is always the same undertone and editorializing. When you go out of your way to say things like "what a mess" and basically end many of your posts with negatives it looks like you have an agenda. So what is your agenda Robert?

You have a post on Gearslutz claiming you are ready to switch to Cubase calling DP 9.1 "awful on your system." So what is it dude are you on Cubase or what? If you are no longer a DP user it really doesn't matter what you think. What you REALLY end up adding to the conversation is confusion and fear.

In the future if you want to follow every POSITIVE report on DP version "whatever" with a Negative Nancy rebuttal spare me and at least put it in the Troubleshooting and Criticisms which was created specifically to keep Motunation from having the sprit of Gearslutz and other boards that seem more favorable to trolling and negative senseless editorializing.

Finally maybe you don't take into account your remarks can do real damage. I've made a great living since 1987 using DP... It is in my interest to SUPPORT a company like MOTU who spends lots of bucks on R&D to make a great DAW. The bigger the user base the better for me and other DP users. FYI I own PT, Logic and Studio One and I am fluent enough to use them with any client who requests those DAWs. I simply prefer DP as my DAW of choice.

It's a free country with free speech and I support your rights. But I am kindly asking you to rethink your current need for "extra empathy." You can fool some people but you can't fool your coaches and your team mates"

[waxman]

As long as I never again have to use a razor blade to edit, I can be happy.

I agree but must add to that.
I cannot, will not, without exception work without my Pink Pearl eraser. It will be a tool in my arsenal long after pencils are gone.

Phil

I like to wear pink pearls when editing. That's all. Just the pearls...

And then there is MLC who can put whatever he want's anywhere. Another image I will never get out of my head...

[billf]

Whining about bugs or issues doesn't solve them. You still have to deal with them until they're fixed. When you find your workarounds and get on with your music, you feel better. Or you should.

Having worked in the IT industry I know that the list of bugs in any piece of software never gets to "zero." The bugs that do get worked on are the bugs that can be reproduced and have the largest impact on the users by priority (for example showstoppers, tier 1, maybe tier 2, etc.). A bug that an individual might have can be significant to that individual, but might not be common or reproducible.

Another factor with users reporting "bugs" is that often (more than people realize) there is some sort of user error (misunderstanding the software) or system conflict unique to that system (for example someone might have an old version of a driver installed that is causing some conflict, or a PCI card not properly seated, etc.).

So yelling and screaming about the developer isn't going to help. Instead, make sure your bug is actually a bug, then document all the steps to reproduce it, and find out if others are getting the same result. Once you have all that data, report it to the developer. That helps separate the wheat from the chaff and actually increases the chance that your bug will get worked on.

Also, make sure you always have workarounds. If the current version isn't working, be prepared to roll back. Always test new versions on a second drive before you install on your main rig. If your OS is stable, don't just "upgrade" without backing it up and testing it all first. Have an alternative DAW that you can use just in case.

[Robert Randolph]

Robert sorry but I'm calling BS. It's not about your duty or your feelings being compromised.

A few year ago James Steele and Shooshie created another area for DP posts called Troubleshooting and Criticisms specifically to deal with this issue. You see what happens is a topic is started like "DP 9.1 Is Here" in the "Usage, Techniques, Tips and Optimization."

A person like myself or others makes a positive report DP 9.1 is working great and virtually eliminates latency. Then in come the self appointed rebuttal police with what is always the same undertone and editorializing. When you go out of your way to say things like "what a mess" and basically end many of your posts with negatives it looks like you have an agenda. So what is your agenda Robert?

DP 9.1 is a mess here so far. (and for many other people too!) I went through quite a few of my recent posts and I don't see the claimed constant negativity.

In fact, from what I see, I've been an extremely constructive poster on this forum. I spend a large portion of my time trying to help people confirm, workaround and report bugs. Quite often privately too.

I have a number of public (and way more private) tutorial videos for DP on youtube. I've made countless animated graphics explaining how to use certain features, or accurately documenting bugs so they can be reported and fixed.

edit: I noted my poor performance in 9.1 before you posted about 9.1 at all. So the idea of being the 'rebuttal police' is a bit silly?

You have a post on Gearslutz claiming you are ready to switch to Cubase calling DP 9.1 "awful on your system." So what is it dude are you on Cubase or what? If you are no longer a DP user it really doesn't matter what you think. What you REALLY end up adding to the conversation is confusion and fear.

My post is here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12052159-post48.html

Anyone is free to read themselves. I use my real full name almost everywhere for a reason. I don't hide my posts, identity or anything of the sort.

You're also free to look through my posts there and see how overwhelmingly positive I've been about DP in general. In fact, I know of 2 people that are now thinking of switching from Cubase->DP due to private discussions I've had stemming from the above linked thread!

You can also see in that thread how I've pointed out that DP does multiple things much better than Cubase. A big chunk of the discussion is about track templates, which I point out that DP does way better (and I have 2 videos on youtube about!)

Anyway, even if I did decide to use Cubase as my primary software (which seems unlikely right now!)... who cares?

In the future if you want to follow every POSITIVE report on DP version "whatever" with a Negative Nancy rebuttal spare me and at least put it in the Troubleshooting and Criticisms which was created specifically to keep Motunation from having the sprit of Gearslutz and other boards that seem more favorable to trolling and negative senseless editorializing.

If you care to read through my posts, I think you'll find that I've spent an awful lot of time trying to help folks out with issues and workarounds.

I've also spent a lot of time trying to categorize and document bugs and their workarounds so that they can be fixed.

Anyway. Full, real name. My post history almost anywhere is easy to find. I don't think your characterization of my forum participation here, or otherwise, is even remotely accurate. If you have any specific citations of me being unduly negative towards any person or program, I'm open to evaluating myself and correcting that behaviour in the future.

Finally maybe you don't take into account your remarks can do real damage. I've made a great living since 1987 using DP... It is in my interest to SUPPORT a company like MOTU who spends lots of bucks on R&D to make a great DAW. The bigger the user base the better for me and other DP users. FYI I own PT, Logic and Studio One and I am fluent enough to use them with any client who requests those DAWs. I simply prefer DP as my DAW of choice.

I hope my comments are as powerful as you claim. Largely because I've been very positive about my experiences with DP publicly and privately.

However, if something is not working on my system, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. It's simply how it is. If something is wrong on someone else's system, I'm not going to stand idly by and let their issues be discounted or ignored.

It's a free country with free speech and I support your rights. But I am kindly asking you to rethink your current need for "extra empathy." You can fool some people but you can't fool your coaches and your team mates"

I'm not asking for extra empathy for myself. I'm asking that people consider the frustration that someone with a bug or poor performance is currently undergoing.

If there's some sort of overwhelming feeling that I'm being unduly negative or participating in the forum in an inflammatory manner then I'm glad to know. I'll certainly be more mindful of my wording from here on out.

[David Polich]

What Waxman said.

DP 9.1 is not a mess here. You have system specific
problems. If 9.1 was a disaster everyone would
be saying that, and that is not the case. And MOTU
would not ne dumb enough to release a "disaster".
C'mon.

Again, I posted this thread to encourage people
to appreciate that we have it pretty good these
days, and that there is no issue that cant be solved
with a little creative brainstorming. Including
any bugs in DP. Guys, these bugs are not deal
killers, they wont stop you from working (I believe),
and at worst, you can download the previous
version and install that. So what is the big
deal? You already have the answers.

I never solved anything by "trying". I believe
you solve problems by "doing". Folding your
arms and getting mad about it isnt going to
get your project done.

The references to the "old days" I put in to
remind that people got things done with what
now seems primitive.

Yes, things "should" work. But sometimes ,
they dont. The choice is yours as to how you
address that.

[waxman]

Ok Robert Randolph good for you addressing the post point by point with a series of rationalizations for the BS. Are you convinced now? What your doing is simply amplifying the obvious. You're not listening man! Did you hear someone call for a self anointed bug czar?

So yeah a few seasoned pros are calling you a whiner. Asking you to post that crap in the whiners area. So pull up your big boy shorts and grow a pair and quit whining or take it to the babies table.

Again what you do is polarizing. Not all of it but some of it... Capiche?

[FMiguelez]

Ok Robert Randolph good for you addressing the post point by point with a series of rationalizations for the BS. Are you convinced now? What your doing is simply amplifying the obvious. You're not listening man! Did you hear someone call for a self anointed bug czar?

So yeah a few seasoned pros are calling you a whiner. Asking you to post that crap in the whiners area. So pull up your big boy shorts and grow a pair and quit whining or take it to the babies table.

Again what you do is polarizing. Not all of it but some of it... Capiche?

Come on, waxman. That is totally uncalled for. Now it seems YOU are the one who is whining.

Do you really feel so strong about this (mis)perceived negativity from Robert? He challenged you to cite all those "negative" posts... Did you find any?

Personally, I think Robert is one of the most helpful members of the community. Just read some of his posts. Critiquing and pointing out DP's flaws is not negativity. It is simply a heads-up to MOTU to fix bugs or broken things.
He clearly does not need me defending him, it's just that you guys are close to painting him with a giant straw man brush, and it's not fair.

Come on, guys!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Ok Robert Randolph good for you addressing the post point by point with a series of rationalizations for the BS. Are you convinced now? What your doing is simply amplifying the obvious. You're not listening man! Did you hear someone call for a self anointed bug czar?

So yeah a few seasoned pros are calling you a whiner. Asking you to post that crap in the whiners area. So pull up your big boy shorts and grow a pair and quit whining or take it to the babies table.

Again what you do is polarizing. Not all of it but some of it... Capiche?

I wish I had said that. That guy has always bugged me from day one. How appropriate he's the self-proclaimed bug czar. Do be prepared for James to jump in and call you on the post. He is usually just deletes my similar posts or emails me to tone it down. But seriously, I'm in total agreement and thank you for this. The guy is a major whiner.

[waxman]

Ok Robert Randolph good for you addressing the post point by point with a series of rationalizations for the BS. Are you convinced now? What your doing is simply amplifying the obvious. You're not listening man! Did you hear someone call for a self anointed bug czar?

So yeah a few seasoned pros are calling you a whiner. Asking you to post that crap in the whiners area. So pull up your big boy shorts and grow a pair and quit whining or take it to the babies table.

Again what you do is polarizing. Not all of it but some of it... Capiche?

Come on, waxman. That is totally uncalled for. Now it seems YOU are the one who is whining.

Do you really feel so strong about this (mis)perceived negativity from Robert? He challenged you to cite all those "negative" posts... Did you find any?

Personally, I think Robert is one of the most helpful members of the community. Just read some of his posts. Critiquing and pointing out DP's flaws is not negativity. It is simply a heads-up to MOTU to fix bugs or broken things.
He clearly does not need me defending him, it's just that you guys are close to painting him with a giant straw man brush, and it's not fair.

Come on, guys!

RR quotes:
"In fact, if DP was doing something other than this then it was a very poor design to begin with and this isn't much of a feature. "
"At best this puts DP on par with how nearly every other DAW works."
"I've had DP crash so hard"
After a glowing report by djwizprod...
RR writes... "How does the same project run in 9.02?"
"DP 9.1 isn't amazing. DP 9.02 was broken if the performance of other major DAWs is to go by."
"We are now on par with everyone else. Hooray? "
"Back to 9.02 for now I guess. What a mess ""
"I also don't understand why it matters if you've used the feature or not. Seems like a rather strange thing to mention."
"if the program wasn't bugged.... well, that's not pleasant."

That's all from one thread. It's the same tone all the time...

FM it's the Editorializing Not ALL but some of it. I'm asking the guy to step down as the self appointed Negative Nancy. It's polarizing and not helpful... at least put it in the area it belongs... bitch section...

[waxman]

Ok Robert Randolph good for you addressing the post point by point with a series of rationalizations for the BS. Are you convinced now? What your doing is simply amplifying the obvious. You're not listening man! Did you hear someone call for a self anointed bug czar?

So yeah a few seasoned pros are calling you a whiner. Asking you to post that crap in the whiners area. So pull up your big boy shorts and grow a pair and quit whining or take it to the babies table.

Again what you do is polarizing. Not all of it but some of it... Capiche?

I wish I had said that. That guy has always bugged me from day one. How appropriate he's the self-proclaimed bug czar. Do be prepared for James to jump in and call you on the post. He is usually just deletes my similar posts or emails me to tone it down. But seriously, I'm in total agreement and thank you for this. The guy is a major whiner.

Quick James there are flames in the South Forty! I don't do this but the passive aggressive editorializing pissed me off.

Example if I were doing it: The old guys are getting grumpy. Some one get them their meds... Actually I don't give a crap really. I'm just bored between sessions. Everybody forgive me. RR you are the bug czar. FM glad you are with RR. Jim? Quick Jim it's sinking quick. You know this ain't the last word.

[Shooshie]

Guys, cut the crap! It's not the 1990s anymore, and our jobs with DP are safe. You don't have to gang up on anyone.

Robert isn't the self-appointed bug czar. He asked if anyone would like a sticky thread where we could post bugs, and the support was there. He volunteered to do it, and it's a lot of work. We post them and he corroborates them.

I understand the sensitivity to unfiltered criticism of DP, and I've jumped on people before, too, most recently Robert! And I was wrong. We used to have to fight to put food on our table with DP, because there were so many idiots out there who thought only ProTools was "pro," and they had the producers convinced that only PT would do the job. We wanted the luxury of using DP, either as a front end to AudioMedia cards, or, later, as native audio software. People in the know understood. But those studio wannabes could make life difficult.

We saw disinformation being fired from cannons at producers and others who had money to hire but didn't give a crap, so they just chose a PT studio and figured they were getting "the best." That was happening then. But now native audio is as powerful... well... almost, as dedicated cards, and in many ways a lot more flexible. We don't have to battle stupidity and misinformation the way we used to. Oh yeah, it's still out there, but it's not the menace it once was.

In any case, Robert isn't a troll and isn't shooting misinformation. He's just voicing frustration with what we all have gotten immune to: DP isn't always great after the first releases of something. Still a great DAW, but not all versions are created equally, you know? Lay off! Act our ages. Wait... no, don't do that. Act about 15 years younger.

Shoosh