Sonar on Macs -- the end of Win-only DAW software?

[Saintmatthew]

I guess I am the only Windows person here, and I use Cakewalk's Sonar Platinum once in a while for specific things, and their synths and samplers (especially Dimension Pro). They have optimized the code base tremendously, and add something new or update something every month. (A few things, actually.) They are on a roll, and the Gibson acquisition has been very, very good for them. Perhaps they used to be a very expensive DAW, but they have regular super-sales, and I picked up the entire Platinum suite for only $150, which is truly insane. However, I do not use it very often. Even though it does look fantastic now (no old "Windows" look anymore, though there are many who miss that for some reason...) I just cannot get my head into it like I can my two main DAWS - those being Samplitude Pro X2 Suite and, more recently and totally in love - DP9.

My first DAW was Samplitude (audio-only) and first sequencer was MOTU Performer (3.2 I think) run on a Mac Plus I souped up to 25MHz and 16 megs of RAM with a then $500 (used!) accelerator card I had to solder in! So, I have long history with both and familiarity.

DP has entirely blown me away - I am totally in sync with its workflow! Complete love! Haven't been in the camp long enough to notice its failings whatsoever. The Windows version is flawless, and nothing in the Mac version is missing from the PC version, according to Nick at MOTU tech support, and I believe that.

Samplitude is getting long in the tooth and rarely updates or adds features, but the object model is fantastic. I am concerned how much longer Magix will support it, but if they never did anything, it has many features I will use for years, especially for mastering. (Harrison Mixbus 3.3 pulls me in once in a while, I admit, but the tools in Samplitude are genuinely first class.)

On the topic of whether they will succeed or fail going to Mac, I do wonder why Cakewalk's folks are going that route. Sonar's code-base audio-wise has just seen a total overhaul (the speeds are amazing with batch jobs!), so perhaps it is easier for them to port over now (perhaps employing more machine-language level code involving Intel chip capabilities? Dunno...) Those deep-cut sales of theirs ensure new folks with low funds will be jumping on board, as they have already demonstrated in rising sales on PC. The prices are so low that even their subscription model seems like a bargain, and the software doesn't "die" if you do not continue the subscription, it merely ceases to get updates (which you can resume at any time by picking up a new subscription at a later date).

So, there is a perspective from an actual Windows user, anyway!

Loving DP - glad they ported to Windows!!!

Terry

I'll be honest, I hate Mirosoft and Windows but I also have one hell of a machine I built for the family system (Wife needed Office on a PC) and I'm VERY tempted at times to try out DP on it. All my plugs are cross platform VST as well now.

[James Steele]

...and the Gibson acquisition has been very, very good for them.

I hope you're right. It wasn't very good for Opcode.

[mhschmieder]

The bandleader that I mentioned earlier, asked me yesterday what DAW he should buy now that he has switched from Windoze to Macs. He is aware of the upcoming Sonar port, and has zero interest. He felt so burned by the instability issues for so many years that I don't think he'd even take it if he got it for free. I have heard, however, that the last two or three updates have been quite stable.

Of course I recommended he look at DP, as someone who prefers a streamlined and flexible workflow and likes to dig down into the details vs. go on auto-pilot. He was thinking of Logic, but I had to warn him about how unstable it is and how much it lags when it comes to plug-in and VI compatibility with their own specs! Nevertheless, he might need Logic as a "second" DAW just as I do, for some of its advanced (and unique) MIDI scripting features (and possibly also for Alchemy).

I own most of Cakewalk's VI's and effects plug-ins by now. I have found the company slow, but responsive. I think they have just one support guy. He's always very apologetic about the delay, but quite attentive and detailed once he gets around to answering my support inquiries. In fact, his level of curiosity about issues on the Mac is part of what clued me in that they might be ramping up their Mac knowledge to do a Sonar port.

The most recent updates have stabilized all of my Cakewalk VI's, which are actually EXTREMELY good and on the level of Roland's and Korg's. Very organic, rich, warm, deep. Their software update center has also finally started working correctly and no longer goes into infinite loop or reset mode.

Cakewalk's plug-ins are another matter (hard to tell which are theirs and which are Roland's as some were developed while they were part of Roland), and I can't use the CA-2A Leveler in Digital Performer (or Logic) as it only works in VST3 mode (not AU or even VST2). I think StudioOne might open CA-2A, but I still use that DAW solely for auditioning plug-in and VI updates and purchases before risking corruption of a DP project.

[Prime Mover]

I too started with Cakewalk (CW9 first then Sonar 1.5), and I have warm, strong associations. The one thing I vaguely remember, and have always missed, was bezier handles on automation curves. Yes!

[Shooshie]

Bezier curves are nice, but we have some powerful tools for that. Try Spline if you want a curve you can work with easily. Bezier curves are overrated for applications like this. For Illustrator, they're fantastic, because they afford all kinds of detail and precision for drawing actual visual shapes. For editing automation, they slow you down. The Spline has a center handle that can shape the curve instantly, and you don't have to fool with multiple handles. I mean, all automation curves are either peaks or valleys, rounded or pointed. That's all you can do. So the bezier curves are really overkill for this kind of thing. All you need is a handle to drag the peak or valley where you want it.

For a quick succession of parabolic ramps, use the parabola tool. You can draw lots of them, fast.

Most impressive of the tools are those which create a wave: square, sine, triangle. Using keyboard modifiers, you have control over amplitude, wavelength, zero-crossing, and beats/time to extend the pattern. All in one stroke! It's amazing. If you need details, read about it in the DP Tips Sheet, page 2, under Control point editing in DP's MIDI Edit Window. I explained it pretty much in depth, there.

Again, Bezier curves are nice, but DP's drawing tools pretty much wipe the competition off the map if you take the time to learn them. The one thing I wish MOTU would improve, there, is to give us keyboard commands to select the tool and action, so as to cut down on the mousing around. That would be primo!

Shooshie

[mhschmieder]

I agree with Shooshie on this one, having seen my bandleader struggle with the Bezier curves in Sonar and not really understand what he was going to get.

Some of you may know that I spent 6-10 years of my life focusing on Bezier and Spline based curves and surfaces for a living. I'm also a strong believer in the right tool for the job, so don't always use my own stuff, so to speak.

Most techie people I know are in love with technology for technology's sake; I only got into technology as a tool for solving real-world problems, where my focus and interest lie. I actually have little interest in technology itself.

MOTU impresses me because they are so well-grounded compared to most DAW companies; most of whom are filled with techno-weebies who think it's cool to add things just because they're cool. As far as I know, MOTU is the only one (aside from ProTools) that employs people with real-world experience mixing, playing, composing, running sound at shows, etc.

[musicman691]

MOTU impresses me because they are so well-grounded compared to most DAW companies; most of whom are filled with techno-weebies who think it's cool to add things just because they're cool. As far as I know, MOTU is the only one (aside from ProTools) that employs people with real-world experience mixing, playing, composing, running sound at shows, etc.

If Avid had those kinds of people there wouldn't be the disaster that is PT12. All the people that knew anything about how their product was used in the real world have left the company. Sean went to Line6, Tom Graham has gone to another company, etc.

[mhschmieder]

Oh, it's quite possible they're all gone by now. The three former employees in my immediate office area have been as slammed as the rest of us this past year or so, and unable to keep up with former colleagues regularly enough to keep track.

The rumour I heard last week is that most of them are now gone. Not surprising given the statement a few months back about huge layoffs and outsourcing.

They're just a few blocks from my office at this point, after moving to Berkeley from Daly City. I began seeing them at the local indie grocery store and wondering why, until I found out, and then started noticing a month or two ago that I wasn't seeing them so much there anymore.

[musicman691]

Oh, it's quite possible they're all gone by now. The three former employees in my immediate office area have been as slammed as the rest of us this past year or so, and unable to keep up with former colleagues regularly enough to keep track.

The rumour I heard last week is that most of them are now gone. Not surprising given the statement a few months back about huge layoffs and outsourcing.

They're just a few blocks from my office at this point, after moving to Berkeley from Daly City. I began seeing them at the local indie grocery store and wondering why, until I found out, and then started noticing a month or two ago that I wasn't seeing them so much there anymore.

Yeah. Development has long been outsourced to either Russia itself or one of the former Soviet Union states. One of the things we wonder about on the DUC is who would be brave enough to buy out Avid and make PT usable again?

[Prime Mover]

Again, Bezier curves are nice, but DP's drawing tools pretty much wipe the competition off the map if you take the time to learn them. The one thing I wish MOTU would improve, there, is to give us keyboard commands to select the tool and action, so as to cut down on the mousing around. That would be primo!

Eh, I think it's just a difference in editing philosophy, and mine is just different from yours. I've seen you speak wonders about all these editing possibilities, I've tried them, and they just don't fit with my work style. Not sure how to explain it, but I hate dealing with lots of individual data points, and would rather work with a few with curve handles. Sure the curve tool has a bezier handle... that disappears after you make it. That just doesn't sit right with me. It's not about being able to create data with handles, but to be able to modify curves quickly by grabbing a single control.

Maybe it's because I've logged over 10,000 hours on Photoshop, Illustrator, and After Effects, but maybe not... I remember loving Sonar's bezier handles back when I used it, before I'd done a lot of vector graphics.

Each to his own.

[mhschmieder]

Good points, PM. I can relate to that. We use the tools we're comfortable with and often that means adapting them to other purposes vs. learning new tools that may be deemed more direct to that purpose.

I do high-end computer graphics for a living (well, it's one of MANY hats that I have to wear, so it doesn't mean it's my main focus each and every day as a rule). Your feedback is very helpful as it gives me more reason to keep pushing for redundancy and alternatives vs. assuming one shoe fits all.

If one way of drawing curves is so intuitive that you are focusing on listening, and on artistry, vs. technique or technology, then clearly that is the right tool for you for the job at hand.

So, the lesson here is that we might be better off if it wasn't an either/or choice. But since it currently is an either/or, then this is another reason why having multiple DAW's can be useful, with DP as the main one of course, and others just around for really specific stuff.

[Shooshie]

Your feedback is very helpful as it gives me more reason to keep pushing for redundancy and alternatives vs. assuming one shoe fits all.

Mark, you are truly one of the good guys in that business. Thanks so much for keeping the flame going.

Shooshie

[mhschmieder]

Thanks, Shooshie, but I've been shouting to the wind for 35 years. It's why I left the core computer industry 16-17 years ago, but working outside the industry -- aside from paying considerably less -- has its own challenges, such as the unwillingness to listen to people with experience as there can be a perception (perhaps deserved) that computer people don't really have wisdom or vision.

I have been holding up MOTU's products for a decade or more by now, as genius examples of proper UX. I was able to convince an engineer on one of our other products that I rarely work on, to institute the concept of redundancy in ways that provide just enough context so that one can stay mostly in one perspective or workflow while task-switching, to retain continuity of thought as well as avoiding jarring visual switches that affect memory, concentration, focus, and follow-through.

It's been awhile since I looked at Sonar. My understanding is that it has been fairly prone to sea changes; whereas DP has had more continuity and never "change for change's sake" or out of desperation.

When I made my decision of which one to buy a decade or so ago -- the decision that directly led to whether my first home computer would be the familiar Windows (which I've always hated) or the scary and unknown Mac (which was transitioning to Unix and thus showed more of a hopeful future from my point of view), Cakewalk was just on the verge of re-branding as Sonar, and that made me nervous and may have tipped me over to DP. They were pretty similar AT THAT POINT, but not so much in the years that have passed since then.

[bayswater]

FL Studio Mac is native now.

I finally got around to having a look. On their site, all I can find is a beta version, wrapped in Crossover. I was not able to find an OS X native version. Is the a link to one you know of?

[Shooshie]

FL Studio Mac is native now.

I finally got around to having a look. On their site, all I can find is a beta version, wrapped in Crossover. I was not able to find an OS X native version. Is the a link to one you know of?

Same here. Furthermore, it says it's only compatible up to Mountain Lion.