Sonar on Macs -- the end of Win-only DAW software?

[mhschmieder]

As expected, the long-promised "big announcement" from Cakewalk today was the porting of Sonar to Mac OS X. Still in alpha stage, and they're asking people to fill out a small form regarding their level of interest.

If I'm not mistaken, Sonar was the last remaining holdout when it comes to single-platform (and especially Windows-only) DAW's -- excepting of course the Apple exception for Logic, which under eMagic was dual-platform.

[Shooshie]

Not interested, of course. And I wonder why THEIR interest, now? DP is at its best, ever, or will be when they iron out a couple of bugs. With Logic, DP, PT, and Cubase to choose from, not to mention Acid, Live, and other smaller players in the DAW game, just what market do they expect to tap with Sonar?

If I remember correctly, the price of Sonar was not competitive. It used to be one of the most expensive platforms out there. Considering the competition, such a price seems incongruous with the market. I can't see buying it for any reason other than as an oddity to play with, and if it turns out to have a feature or two that nobody else has, then maybe I could use it for that, as long as it imports & exports easily to DP.

Shooshie

[edited: changed "Cakewalk" to "Cubase." Oops... they both start with C, you know?]

[mikehalloran]

Cakewalk has the same appeal to me as ACID for Mac if that should ever come to pass: None

[FMiguelez]

I agree, Shoosh.
I think they came too late to the party (and apparently, with too little to offer or impress).

Actually, I started out with PCs and Cakewalk (before it became Sonar). It was fine for what I did back then, but I felt the chains coming off the minute I tried DP and saw all its features!

I also remember the GUI was extremely Windoze-like and ugly, and, based on tutorials I've seen recently, it remains as ugly, if not uglier.

I don't think they will recoup their investment...

[Shooshie]

I also remember the GUI was extremely Windoze-like and ugly, and, based on tutorials I've seen recently, it remains as ugly, if not uglier.

I don't think they will recoup their investment...

For some people, the old Windows look means "business." I'd say that I pity those poor souls, but... well... I don't.

I once did a shoot-out with another DAW, where we each manned our workstations and used the same I/O to record and play back some things. We did a pretty pretty wide variety of tracks, and DP was chosen unanimously by everyone there, based on the sound. What I remember most, though, was finishing my tasks in seconds, then watching the other guy do his tasks as he fumbled through various windows, sub windows, pop-ups, menus, etc. Sometimes he'd be another full minute or two on each task we did. You'd think I was cheating or something, but his DAW just made everything that much harder to use. I believe it was Sound-Stream. I don't remember for sure. It was a major player at one time.

Also, regarding Sonar, it has one thing I always loved: the name! What a great name for a DAW! Their accompanying picture on the advertising, with a periscope and compass markings, wasn't necessarily bad, either. But the price and platform made it a non-starter for me, especially since I can think of very few times that I felt disconcerted with what I had in DP, and those that I can think of didn't last long!

Shooshie

[bayswater]

If I'm not mistaken, Sonar was the last remaining holdout when it comes to single-platform (and especially Windows-only) DAW's -- excepting of course the Apple exception for Logic, which under eMagic was dual-platform.

There's Samplitude. It never made it to OS X. And FL Studio uses a WIndows emulator rather than native OS X code.

[Michael Canavan]

If I'm not mistaken, Sonar was the last remaining holdout when it comes to single-platform (and especially Windows-only) DAW's -- excepting of course the Apple exception for Logic, which under eMagic was dual-platform.

There's Samplitude. It never made it to OS X. And FL Studio uses a WIndows emulator rather than native OS X code.

Yeah those are the first two I thought of as well.

IMO anyway, the Mac port is mainly going to appeal to people using Pro Tools on OSX who sometimes wish for Sonar from before they switched platforms. Just a guess? I wonder how well the Windows port of DP has turned out for MOTU really? I seriously never would have expected either move ten years ago.

[mhschmieder]

As some of you know, the Sonar vs. DP decision was what made me choose a Mac when I bought my first computer back in the iMac G4 days.

They were the only two DAW's at the time, that felt "natural" to me with my analog background, and that also supported MIDI and unlimited tracks. The recent rebranding to Sonar from Cakewalk made me nervous about its future, and a well-known co-worker (former editor of Electronic Musician and inactive MOTUnation forum member) swayed me towards DP, even though I had zero Mac experience and the OS 9 to OS X transition was in a rather wild state at the time.

Anyway, a few years later, I joined a synth-pop band headed by a Sonar user. We always had trouble collaborating with actual files, so I usually gave up and just did all of my tracking at his place after some initial trials that I sent his way (and which failed to import or line up properly).

I was always amazed how long everything took him, as he had ten to fifteen years more experience at computer-based recording and production than I did. And he was always jealous of how little trouble I had on my Mac with audio drivers and with establishing the workflow of my choise in DP. In Sonar, it seems that all of the choices had already been made about the "right" way to do things.

A number of years ago, some of us marveled on this forum at the relative lengths of instructions for installing and using various instruments and plug-ins, with DP consistently coming in at the smallest page count and Cubase having the longest, with Sonar right behind it and ProTools often on par with DP for ease and simplicity of plug-and-play between various vendors.

When MOTU announced their Windows port of DP, I wondered how many people they would hire from Cakewalk. Now that Cakewalk is turning it around, I'd be shocked if they can successfully convince any MOTU employees to cross the street to help with their effort. Maybe they hired fresh college grads or outsourced it?

Gibson isn't known for investing in their purchases, but maybe this effort started during the Roland reign?

In short, perhaps Sonar will go the way of OPCODE, now that they have the same landlord.

[musicman691]

I think Hades has just frozen over with this news.

Full disclosure - I started out with Sonar as I'd always had some form of a PC at home, starting with machines that ran DOS 4.0 and then various forms of Windows. It was okay for what it did but one thing that always bothered me was the circus-like colors of the gui. At that time I was (and still am to some extent) bi-lingual with computers - Macs at work (aerospace) and PC's at home. Whenever I brought up the idea of porting Sonar to Mac on the Sonar forums I would get trashed like you wouldn't believe even though I was a long-time member on there.

I started looking for an alternative when they came out with the follow-on to the original Sonar (I stopped at Sonar 8.3) and I would have needed a new machine. Since that was the case I decided to go to a Mac and PT. Worked that way for a while and it was okay. Then Avid started with this business of subscriptions and that's when I went pretty much full time to DP.

All that being said I don't regret the move to DP. Sure it's taken me a bit to get used to the way things work in it that are different than PT and some of it still drives me batty but the only time I start up PT anymore is to work on old projects.

I think my forum membership over at the Sonar site may still be good so I'll have to check in and see what's being said.

addendum:
Yes my forum login is still good over at the Sonar forums. Reading through this announcement thread http://forum.cakewalk.com/Big-announcem ... 81-p5.aspx and looking at post 121 at this point in time not only is this an alpha build but there is NO support for au format plugins, just vst2, vst3 and dx (how can they be using dx on a Mac?). And for those with current up-to-date subscriptions (yes Sonar is subscription now) it's a free alpha for the Mac version.

It's kind of a mixed reaction to the news with some fearing that Mac users might be snooty towards Windows users. Some like that finally Sonar is on a Mac and some don't. It hasn't gotten to villagers with pitchforks and torches against Mac yet but that could well happen if the posters there are as I remember from years ago.

[Robert Randolph]

If I'm not mistaken, Sonar was the last remaining holdout when it comes to single-platform (and especially Windows-only) DAW's -- excepting of course the Apple exception for Logic, which under eMagic was dual-platform.

There's Samplitude. It never made it to OS X. And FL Studio uses a WIndows emulator rather than native OS X code.

FL Studio Mac is native now.

[terrybritton]

I guess I am the only Windows person here, and I use Cakewalk's Sonar Platinum once in a while for specific things, and their synths and samplers (especially Dimension Pro). They have optimized the code base tremendously, and add something new or update something every month. (A few things, actually.) They are on a roll, and the Gibson acquisition has been very, very good for them. Perhaps they used to be a very expensive DAW, but they have regular super-sales, and I picked up the entire Platinum suite for only $150, which is truly insane. However, I do not use it very often. Even though it does look fantastic now (no old "Windows" look anymore, though there are many who miss that for some reason...) I just cannot get my head into it like I can my two main DAWS - those being Samplitude Pro X2 Suite and, more recently and totally in love - DP9.

My first DAW was Samplitude (audio-only) and first sequencer was MOTU Performer (3.2 I think) run on a Mac Plus I souped up to 25MHz and 16 megs of RAM with a then $500 (used!) accelerator card I had to solder in! So, I have long history with both and familiarity.

DP has entirely blown me away - I am totally in sync with its workflow! Complete love! Haven't been in the camp long enough to notice its failings whatsoever. The Windows version is flawless, and nothing in the Mac version is missing from the PC version, according to Nick at MOTU tech support, and I believe that.

Samplitude is getting long in the tooth and rarely updates or adds features, but the object model is fantastic. I am concerned how much longer Magix will support it, but if they never did anything, it has many features I will use for years, especially for mastering. (Harrison Mixbus 3.3 pulls me in once in a while, I admit, but the tools in Samplitude are genuinely first class.)

On the topic of whether they will succeed or fail going to Mac, I do wonder why Cakewalk's folks are going that route. Sonar's code-base audio-wise has just seen a total overhaul (the speeds are amazing with batch jobs!), so perhaps it is easier for them to port over now (perhaps employing more machine-language level code involving Intel chip capabilities? Dunno...) Those deep-cut sales of theirs ensure new folks with low funds will be jumping on board, as they have already demonstrated in rising sales on PC. The prices are so low that even their subscription model seems like a bargain, and the software doesn't "die" if you do not continue the subscription, it merely ceases to get updates (which you can resume at any time by picking up a new subscription at a later date).

So, there is a perspective from an actual Windows user, anyway!

Loving DP - glad they ported to Windows!!!

Terry

[stubbsonic]

My experience with Cakewalk's support was that it was just non-responsive. The way it was set up, I just submitted a form then nothing happened. Not very confidence inspiring. That didn't stop me from grabbing Z3ta+2 for mac when it ported. I don't use it much, but it has a best-in-class mod matrix.

I've heard great things about Samplitude. That would be great to see in a mac version, but I gather the learning curve and workflow are quite different.

[terrybritton]

My experience with Cakewalk's support was that it was just non-responsive. The way it was set up, I just submitted a form then nothing happened. Not very confidence inspiring. That didn't stop me from grabbing Z3ta+2 for mac when it ported. I don't use it much, but it has a best-in-class mod matrix.

I'm not sure during what time period you had that experience, but my experiences recently have been very good - and the Cakewalk community is really helpful as well. They have stepped up their game considerably since the takeover by Gibson from Roland.

I've heard great things about Samplitude. That would be great to see in a mac version, but I gather the learning curve and workflow are quite different.

Yes, quite different workflows, but mostly the same. Having editable slices (called objects) each having their own suite of effects, pans, crossfades, etc., etc. is the oddest feature, but otherwise editing and such are very similar. I would have to put those slices into their own tracks in other DAWS to accomplish the same tricks. (And you can do that as well, of course.) They have no plans at all for porting Samplitude or Sequoia over to Mac that they have announced. But, Magix just bought out Sony's video stuff (including Vegas Pro) so who knows where they will use that newly acquired tech.

Terry

[stubbsonic]

I'm not sure during what time period you had that experience, but my experiences recently have been very good - and the Cakewalk community is really helpful as well. They have stepped up their game considerably since the takeover by Gibson from Roland.

That's good to know. Perhaps I should have another run at it with the short list of issues with their software. I won't hold my breath, but perhaps they've gotten their act together?

[musicman691]

Yes, quite different workflows, but mostly the same. Having editable slices (called objects) each having their own suite of effects, pans, crossfades, etc., etc. is the oddest feature, but otherwise editing and such are very similar. I would have to put those slices into their own tracks in other DAWS to accomplish the same tricks. (And you can do that as well, of course.) They have no plans at all for porting Samplitude or Sequoia over to Mac that they have announced. But, Magix just bought out Sony's video stuff (including Vegas Pro) so who knows where they will use that newly acquired tech.

Terry

Magix also got Sony's audio stuff: Soundforge and Acid.