Sax library needed

[musicman691]

Looking for a good sax library. I know of two Sample Modeling Sax Brothers and Chris Hein Horns. CHH has solo alto and tenor sax but their baritone is a section (2 instruments) with no solo baritone. Sax Brothers doesn't say explicitly what they have. Would prefer having solo for all three saxes. Soprano sax isn't a necessary item for me. Would prefer something that runs in Kontakt 5.

Keep in mind that as of now I don't have a wind controller so support for that isn't a must-have.

[mhschmieder]

Not sure if the sale is still on, but CMusic has saxes that can be bought a la carte or as a package deal. I had bought other products for them, which qualified me for a special mark-down during a regular sale, so went ahead and bought their sax package as it's nice to have other timbres available at the very least (and stuff that might work better for certain articulations).

I haven't had a chance to use it yet, unfortunately, and may not for awhile, as I have finally -- quite recently -- replaced my "missing saxes" with intermediate models, after selling some disappointing "beginners' models" last summer. So I'm more inclined to just practice, and replace my parts with real sax at this point than to continue tweaking MIDI (even stuff generated via Yamaha WX5).

One thing I can say though, after many years of trying it many different ways (including hybrid approaches), is that the single most important factor in getting realistic sax parts is to avoid static pitch like the plague! Unfortunately, it is hard to fake out a sax player's natural pitch range without sounding sour or extreme in some fashion, or to properly interact this with vibrato and expression.

I often get to where my SWAM sax parts are quite satisfactory for awhile, until I've been working on something so long that I just can't bear those parts anymore and realize I need live horns. This does not happen as much with my Sample Modeling trumpet, trombone, tuba, and horn parts. So I don't know if it's the difference between Kontakt and SWAM, or just the relative difficulty of each instrument to emulate, or even which person at Sample Modeling did most of the work.

Although I have kept my Kontakt versions of the sax libraries, it is more as a backup in case SWAM ever breaks or loses support. I feel the phrasing and articulation-switching in the SWAM version is significantly better. It's not a slam-dunk though, as I slightly prefer the timbre of the originals.

Other than the CMusic libraries mentioned earlier, I can't recommend anything else. Chris Hein's free set in the core Kontakt Library can work as a good placeholder in section work, but I find his stuff hard to work with overall, and only his very most recent libraries and updates really take it to the next level in terms of covering everything you'd need. For that reason, I have the harmonica library and may consider the new solo violin. But I am still not convinced by the winds, brass, etc. -- though perhaps a bit more so by the newer orchestra-oriented versions of those libraries.

Don't forget VSL though, and this might be the month that their woodwinds are on sale. Their saxes are incredible, but I simply don't use them much anymore because I'm too lazy now that I have Sample Modeling. The timbre is unsurpassed and also quite flexible, with every articulation you'd ever want or need for any genre or style.

Now that I am finally getting a bit better at splitting parts for multiple articulation assignments, in some of the other woodwind libraries from VSL, I may give the saxes another go, but again, I am more likely to just go straight to real horns at this point a I am so happy with my new Kessler tenor and soprano (and have always loved my Yamaha alto), and my new mouthpieces and ligatures.

I find that the Sample Modeling stuff works pretty well with any type of controller; I used the WX5 for most of my brass (except where I have complicated stuff like trombone slides and trumpet doits and falls), but my sax parts were actually more entered from keyboards than from wind controllers overall (not sure why; probably I never expected them to be final parts so was lazy).

[mhschmieder]

The CMusic stuff is still on sale for a bit longer.

Not as organic as Sample Modeling, but a bit cheaper (I think), and arguably better timbre (I really only like the tenor sax from Sample Modeling and just learn to live with the alto, baritone, and soprano and try to double it with other stuff so I don't mind as much).

I ended up sticking with Sample Modeling for my jazz work (and all of that will soon get replaced by real saxes -- maybe even the baritone -- a soon as I have a chance to do some miking tests to see how I want to go about it).

The CMusic stuff seems to work better in pop and synth contexts, as well as more atmospheric stuff. This may be due to the nice timbre, which can get as nice as VSL (almost). Outside of jazz, I tend to do less expressive playing, but also may use more vibrato.

CMusic beats Sample Modeling for my temporarily set aside synth-ethnic-and-orchestral albums that I almost finished last summer, for "impressions of moons of the solar system" and Doctor Who inspired material. I did a few trial runs with it and was especially impressed by their soprano sax and baritone sax. I don't recall my take on the alto as that's the voicing where I have long had a true pro model at hand (Yamaha YAS-675). Less incentive there.

[musicman691]

The CMusic stuff is still on sale for a bit longer.

Not as organic as Sample Modeling, but a bit cheaper (I think), and arguably better timbre (I really only like the tenor sax from Sample Modeling and just learn to live with the alto, baritone, and soprano and try to double it with other stuff so I don't mind as much).

I ended up sticking with Sample Modeling for my jazz work (and all of that will soon get replaced by real saxes -- maybe even the baritone -- a soon as I have a chance to do some miking tests to see how I want to go about it).

The CMusic stuff seems to work better in pop and synth contexts, as well as more atmospheric stuff. This may be due to the nice timbre, which can get as nice as VSL (almost). Outside of jazz, I tend to do less expressive playing, but also may use more vibrato.

CMusic beats Sample Modeling for my temporarily set aside synth-ethnic-and-orchestral albums that I almost finished last summer, for "impressions of moons of the solar system" and Doctor Who inspired material. I did a few trial runs with it and was especially impressed by their soprano sax and baritone sax. I don't recall my take on the alto as that's the voicing where I have long had a true pro model at hand (Yamaha YAS-675). Less incentive there.

Never heard of a sample library that's mid-side. I don't do anything in that idiom as the few times I've messed with it I tended to muck things up pretty bad.

So you're a bit of a Whovian I gather? Been into the Doctor since Jon Pertwee days. I wonder if the BBC will do another user-created opening theme contest like they did for Capaldi - that'd be cool. I've done a couple of variations on the theme.

[mhschmieder]

I'm just sorry my bandleader for that project has been so caught up with family life the past ten years to have had a chance to review my preliminary mixes so I can move on and finalize/publish them. The original goal was to finish right ahead of the 50th anniversary. I was done at my end with time to spare.

I don't suppose it matters; it continues to grow in popularity stateside, and they have plenty of composers on board so probably wouldn't want my material. Instead, it can be appreciated for what it is, which is my own musical impressions of key episodes and characters.

As for mid/side in sample libraries, I haven't really worked with that aspect of them yet but am intrigued. I can't imagine I'd find as much use for it as I do for VSL's Vienna Suite and the amazing PowerPan plug-in, where I shape and move the stereo image to my heart's content, reducing clutter between parts.

[musicman691]

I'm just sorry my bandleader for that project has been so caught up with family life the past ten years to have had a chance to review my preliminary mixes so I can move on and finalize/publish them. The original goal was to finish right ahead of the 50th anniversary. I was done at my end with time to spare.

I don't suppose it matters; it continues to grow in popularity stateside, and they have plenty of composers on board so probably wouldn't want my material. Instead, it can be appreciated for what it is, which is my own musical impressions of key episodes and characters.

As for mid/side in sample libraries, I haven't really worked with that aspect of them yet but am intrigued. I can't imagine I'd find as much use for it as I do for VSL's Vienna Suite and the amazing PowerPan plug-in, where I shape and move the stereo image to my heart's content, reducing clutter between parts.

Family takes precedence over all; if that means the music takes a backseat then that's what has to happen. I won't say it hasn't cost me but it has once; failed on delivery of some Enya-type material a couple of years back but that person has come back to me for more work so I can't complain.

[crescentoon55]

Check out this.... http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/index.php

[musicman691]

Check out this.... http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/index.php

Already mentioned and researched in this thread. SM's Sax Brothers was one of the first libraries I looked at.

[crescentoon55]

Never mind...

[monkey man]

Hey Jack!

I'm no expert, brother, but the SM stuff's been on my radar for, I don't know, 5 years? I've still not bought any VIs apart from Spectrasonics, so percussion, maybe strings (might get away with Roland and Yammy ROMpler racks) and definitely a pop / funk brass section and solo sax and trumpet will be necessary as soon as I start recording later this year.

The demos are impressive. The control seems simple and the possible articulations comprehensive enough. My only question, and I asked this of Mark some months back but assume he must've missed it, is whether or not all the instruments from SM are available as SWAM versions. I don't run Kontakt and have no intention of buying into NI lest I be led down an impossibly-deep rabbit hole, so it's SWAM for me or bust.

Probably doesn't help you any, but figured I'd let you know that I was keen too...

[musicman691]

Hey Jack!

I'm no expert, brother, but the SM stuff's been on my radar for, I don't know, 5 years? I've still not bought any VIs apart from Spectrasonics, so percussion, maybe strings (might get away with Roland and Yammy ROMpler racks) and definitely a pop / funk brass section and solo sax and trumpet will be necessary as soon as I start recording later this year.

The demos are impressive. The control seems simple and the possible articulations comprehensive enough. My only question, and I asked this of Mark some months back but assume he must've missed it, is whether or not all the instruments from SM are available as SWAM versions. I don't run Kontakt and have no intention of buying into NI lest I be led down an impossibly-deep rabbit hole, so it's SWAM for me or bust.

Probably doesn't help you any, but figured I'd let you know that I was keen too...

Thanks for the thoughts. For me I'm the opposite as I truly am deep down the rabbit hole of Kontakt instruments. No urge to learn another sample engine if I can help it. I do have Omnisphere but other than mucking about with the presets I don't delve into any programming of it.

I'm not sure but at least for the sax the SWAM version has all 4 sax variants and IIRC Sax Brothers only has 3 (no soprano sax but then again I don't do any Kenny G stuff).

[buzzsmith]

I'm getting a bit interested in SampleModeling's products.

But, I saw this...

"Mr. Sax A, B and T are all supplied with the NI Kontakt Player 4, the read-only version of Native Instruments flagship sampler. It involves many new features and bugfixes, including 64 bit, extended memory and multicore support, DFD optimisation, better compliance with some OS and hosts, aftertouch support etc. The Player is included as a separate installer, and no additional software is required to play the instrument. Stand-alone mode, as well as plugin formats VST, DXi, RTAS and AU are supported.

The instruments can be also loaded and played in the full version of Kontakt. Please note, however, that they cannot be opened or modified, and no access to the samples, impulse responses or instrument programming is provided."

That last paragraph...I'm assuming that the caveat applies no matter if it's the Kontakt player or K5. Just not really clear.

And (because each instrument's description warns of heavy CPU), has anyone attempted to do a pop/funk 4 horn section using their Trumpet, Sax Bros. and Trombone?

Thanks,

Buzzy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[musicman691]

I'm getting a bit interested in SampleModeling's products.

But, I saw this...

"Mr. Sax A, B and T are all supplied with the NI Kontakt Player 4, the read-only version of Native Instruments flagship sampler. It involves many new features and bugfixes, including 64 bit, extended memory and multicore support, DFD optimisation, better compliance with some OS and hosts, aftertouch support etc. The Player is included as a separate installer, and no additional software is required to play the instrument. Stand-alone mode, as well as plugin formats VST, DXi, RTAS and AU are supported.

The instruments can be also loaded and played in the full version of Kontakt. Please note, however, that they cannot be opened or modified, and no access to the samples, impulse responses or instrument programming is provided."

That last paragraph...I'm assuming that the caveat applies no matter if it's the Kontakt player or K5. Just not really clear.

And (because each instrument's description warns of heavy CPU), has anyone attempted to do a pop/funk 4 horn section using their Trumpet, Sax Bros. and Trombone?

Thanks,

Buzzy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

With the library format NI uses there's no access at all to the samples themselves or the ir's no matter the library or whether it's Kontakt Player or Kontakt Full. And Kontakt full is the only one that allows access to programming (scripts, etc.). Now whether the latter also applies to Sax Brothers - I don't know for sure.

[buzzsmith]

That's what I assumed. Something was just not translated perfectly.

Thanks.

Buzzy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mhschmieder]

Sorry I didn't see this earlier; have been working way past midnight lately (430am last night) and haven't had much time for music production (though I've had a LOT of gigs and rehearsals, at least, so haven't had to drop music altogether), or forum visits.

Anyway, the sad thing is that (in my view) the best Sample Modeling stuff is the Kontakt instruments vs. the SWAM material. It may just be that Trumpet and Trombone, as well as Horn and Tuba, were easier to pull off realistically.

I initially thought the switch to SWAM was due to the tricks they had to pull in Kontakt to cover the higher-pitched saxophones (especially soprano), which made most of us have to constantly record outside a project's sample rate (making it hard to audition within proper context) and then do off-line conversions followed by re-import of tracks. Quite a PITA after a few tweaks and re-dos.

I do think the articulations and phrasing are more realistic in SWAM for the saxes than in the Kontakt versions, but it's hard to say which has the "better" timbre as that is so subjective and contextual. I'm glad I have both but mostly use SWAM now for the saxes. But as I mentioned earlier, now that I've finally fleshed out my basic sax collection (soprano, alto, tenor -- not sure I'll ever buy a baritone), I think I'm going to stop doing mock-ups or even early takes using SM anymore (for sax).

The ones I find completely unusable are flute (though sometimes the alto flute is OK), and the new viola library (which sounds like a harmonica to my ears, after HOURS of tweaking). The oboe family are pretty good actually, and have a timbre that is surprisingly close to VSL. The clarinets are also surprisingly good and usable, and this comes from someone for whom clarinet is the instrument that has been my primary one for the longest stretch of my life.

I am by far the most impressed by the Tuba/Horn combo for Kontakt, which just got an extensive update last week. After that, The Trumpet, then The Trombone. Somehow also, the many timbral choices of alternates for each, seem more varied than the alternatives for each instrument in the SWAM libraries, which all seem to have a somewhat synthetic basic timbre.