Comping Takes. Still gushing.

[Shooshie]

After years of using take comping, I still gush at what an amazing feature this is. This used to be one of the most difficult parts of mixing. If you had a lot of takes, and if you really needed to use them, it was tedious and time consuming to figure out which take to use in which place, and it required slicing up takes, copying, pasting, and then fades. Sometimes there just wasn't room for a fade, and you'd have to step back, regroup, and figure out another approach. If you could get a zero crossing to match another zero crossing, in the same phase, you could often get away without a fade.

But that's just the way things were before take comping in DP. Then there's the way things were before DP. Razor blades, cutting blocks, chalk, etc. Today I was thinking about that while doing several songs with the person who I've been recording, and when she asked to change some comp dividers for better flow, I realized that in the old days that would have been next to impossible. You'd have had to work from a copy, because once you've cut up your tape, you can't go back and put it together again. Well... technically you could, but it would be quite difficult to put it back together and move your cuts over a half inch or so. Next-to-impossible.

Seriously, when I think of the work that used to go into this stuff, it almost makes me shudder to think about it. We didn't know any differently, so it was just "how it was done." You worked on a song all night, all the next day... whatever it took. When I think about the poor engineers who worked with the pianist, Glenn Gould, it gives me chills. The guy was known for doing over 80 splices in a single piece of music. Of course, some of those pieces may be 20 minutes long, but most were Bach pieces of just a few minutes. It was an amazing amount of work, and he would change his mind... it must have been extremely frustrating, but ultimately rewarding.

Take comping was a feature that had to be. Many thanks to those who created it and applied it to DP. It has changed my workflow and my entire philosophy about recording and multiple takes. There was a time when I just did two takes, and used the best one. Occasionally I would splice a few sections from them if there were good, wide-open places to cut. But for me it was easier to record it again than to do a lot of splicing, and getting it "like I wanted" was what a practice room was for. I still maintain that you need to be able to play it like you want it, but take comping means you can have those little snippets of personality that sneak through here and there, making various phrases stand out in various takes. It's just wonderful!

I think this is the umpteenth post I've made on the subject. It's one of those things that makes me pinch myself when using DP, and ask "all this, and I get paid? Unbelievable!"

Shooshie

[monkey man]

Woohoo! Umpteen posts about this and I managed to miss them all, Maestro!

How ya doin', brother Shoosh?

You wouldn't... actually, you would believe it - I haven't yet used the feature... and many others that have cropped (get it?) up in the past 10 years.

My only question to you is, and this has concerned me as I like to be prepared, are there any gotchas lying in wait for me when I eventually get 'round to using the comp window / feature? IOW, is it sufficiently self-explanatory to render peripheral research redundant?

So glad you're still flying' our beloved 'Cornie flag, Brother Shooshmeister.

[Shooshie]

My only question to you is, and this has concerned me as I like to be prepared, are there any gotchas lying in wait for me when I eventually get 'round to using the comp window / feature? IOW, is it sufficiently self-explanatory to render peripheral research redundant?

Let me put it this way: I haven't read the chapter in the manual about take comping. It was just so logical and self-evident that I didn't see the need. Not that I WOULDN'T, but just... haven't had to yet.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Actually, here's a trick for you. If you're comping some takes, but you've got takes that just don't quite line up, and you can't get one of them in phase (thus a click) or in time, and assuming that you don't want to move the soundbite, because it's not ALL out of time, but just the part you want is a little off, well, here's what you do.

Go ahead and make your comp borders by clicking and dragging the comp tool over the area you want to use. Now, on either side of those borders, in the track that's off the beat, hold down the C key and click on either side to cut that section into its own little soundbite. Now hold down (or double tap) the COMMA to get the Slip Tool. This will enable you to slide that soundbite — within its frame — till it lines up exactly where you want it, without disturbing the frame or comp borders. So easy. You can put your razor blades away!

Finally, double-tap the B key and get back to your comping. I tells ya, it's mahvelous.

Shooshie

[monkey man]

Gee, thank you Shoosh. Sorry I haven't spotted your reply 'til now; I'm accustomed to using the "View new posts" link on the Index page which doesn't include this sub-forum, unfortunately.

Your tip sounds simple enough, but is a little daunting to picture as I haven't even used the Slip tool yet. All should become clear once I get 'round to trying comping out 'though, according to what you've shared.

Again, thank you, Maestro!

[bayswater]

I'm accustomed to using the "View new posts" link on the Index page which doesn't include this sub-forum, unfortunately.

"View new posts" is how I came across this.

[monkey man]

You're kidding Stoiv. Wow.

Unbelievable. They're showing for me now. I've not seen them for at least a year; this is why I, for instance, missed James' response to my VPN thing, which was more than 3 weeks ago and included a follow-up post, followed in turn by a note from Billy. That's 3 new posts under a thread title which I couldn't miss with my eyes closed, and this is typical of my experience since "returning" to the forum near the start of last year.

Why they should show up now is beyond me; there doesn't appear to be a user-definable parameter that could explain this.

Thank you for the heads-up, Stoivo. Take care mate; I really ought to run.

[toodamnhip]

I too love the take comp tool. However, I really wish it comped without overwriting the underlying data in the comp track. Overwriting the underlying data in the comp track ruins edge editing for me, or, makes me need to re-peel the edge of the underlying track before trying edge edits with the newly imported take. I like to take a snippet of a word and edge edit to see which part of the original take I want. If Dps comp tool would just layer any choose take on top of the takes already in the comp, track it would be better. AT least it would be nice to have it as a user preference.

[Shooshie]

I too love the take comp tool. However, I really wish it comped without overwriting the underlying data in the comp track. Overwriting the underlying data in the comp track ruins edge editing for me, or, makes me need to re-peel the edge of the underlying track before trying edge edits with the newly imported take. I like to take a snippet of a word and edge edit to see which part of the original take I want. If Dps comp tool would just layer any choose take on top of the takes already in the comp, track it would be better. AT least it would be nice to have it as a user preference.

Not sure I understand. I do edits like what you're talking about all the time. I cut segments into a take, then use the Slip Tool to line it up more perfectly with adjoining sides of the comp track. I get pretty creative sometimes, and I've never run into a limit like what you're describing.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're describing, but it sounds an awfully lot like what I do. It occurs to me that auto-spell may be part of the reason we're not communicating here. I'm just not getting the meaning of some of your sentences. (not trying to be an A-hole; just sayin')

Anyway, I do a lot of things in the comp tracks and within the takes, and I haven't run into any problems. Yet. Simply amazing.

Shoosh

[Henry Robinett]

I don't know anything about this it would appear.


All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
I Have Known Mountains by Henry Robinett
https://itun.es/us/pi6C_

[Babz]

I ran across a couple of situations where using the comp tool was not the right choice. One was where I had like 15-20 takes and each had Spectral Effects and UAD plugins on all of them. I discovered that when you do the Takes To Tracks command, the Spectral Effects are not retained on the newly created tracks. The other problem was creating like 20 tracks suddenly overloaded my UAD DSP. I know I should just try to do fewer takes, but... What can I say? Some projects get heated and manical. Thus, I have tended to avoid the comp tool. It's something I wished for forever, and was blown away when I first saw it, but real world struggles over something that is giving you enough difficulty that you need to keep trying takes can have a way of making the tool less useful.

Babz

[Shooshie]

I ran across a couple of situations where using the comp tool was not the right choice. One was where I had like 15-20 takes and each had Spectral Effects and UAD plugins on all of them. I discovered that when you do the Takes To Tracks command, the Spectral Effects are not retained on the newly created tracks. The other problem was creating like 20 tracks suddenly overloaded my UAD DSP. I know I should just try to do fewer takes, but... What can I say? Some projects get heated and manical. Thus, I have tended to avoid the comp tool. It's something I wished for forever, and was blown away when I first saw it, but real world struggles over something that is giving you enough difficulty that you need to keep trying takes can have a way of making the tool less useful.

Babz

Now that is an interesting take on comps. I do have comments/questions.

1) You said:

One was where I had like 15-20 takes and each had Spectral Effects and UAD plugins on all of them. I discovered that when you do the Takes To Tracks command, the Spectral Effects are not retained on the newly created tracks.

Is that really a comp problem? I just do "Show Takes," which sets up the Comp feature. Selecting the comp tool completes the operation. Of course, what you are saying may apply to either operation; I don't know, because I haven't used Spectral Effects in combination with comps.

I do all comping before I do effects. Automation on individual takes will not show up in the final comp, either, so you have to do your comping before you do the automation. It's the COMP TRACK that will get the final Spectral Effects or automation.

On the other hand, slicing and dicing individual takes will apply to the comped track. For instance, some takes don't perfectly line up with the other takes you're comping them into. You can't drag the take to make it line up, because you'd be destroying the rest of the take and its many applications to the comp. So, you cut on either side of the part you need to slide, which gives you three soundbites within that one take, and you use the Slip Tool to slide the mis-aligned soundbite within its frame so that it lines up with the comped takes around it.

2) Too many takes spoils the broth. But sometimes people need a lot, and not always because they can't cut the part, but because we're looking for that je ne sais quoi that makes it. So, I try to cull as I go. And in those cases where I end up with a long list of takes to comp from, I don't try to listen to them all. Just until I find the one I can use, usually trying the later takes, working backward, and if they aren't getting there, I go to the first take and work forward. It's very rare that I listen to 20 takes to get one that works. Also, I take notes while recording. I usually know which takes I want to use, and where, before I start making comps.

It may not work for everyone, but for me it's essential: keep the take count under 15 if possible, and don't do effects until after the comping is done.

You hear stories about how some of the classic rock groups did 70 takes, or twice that, to get the one on the album. I say this about that: a) they were stoned and hadn't practiced, so the engineer just kept on until they had learned the part; and/or b) the engineer was a sadist; or c) they probably had the good one by take 10, but they couldn't store those takes as they went, so they lost it and it took 60 more before they got another like it, possibly repeating the take-10 experience 6 more times in the process. (maybe that's why bands were always breaking up!)

Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

I ran across a couple of situations where using the comp tool was not the right choice. One was where I had like 15-20 takes and each had Spectral Effects and UAD plugins on all of them. I discovered that when you do the Takes To Tracks command, the Spectral Effects are not retained on the newly created tracks. The other problem was creating like 20 tracks suddenly overloaded my UAD DSP. I know I should just try to do fewer takes, but... What can I say? Some projects get heated and manical. Thus, I have tended to avoid the comp tool. It's something I wished for forever, and was blown away when I first saw it, but real world struggles over something that is giving you enough difficulty that you need to keep trying takes can have a way of making the tool less useful.

Babz

A bit of advice. After you use “show tracks”, go up to the TO window and shut off all the newly showing subtracks except for the comp track itself. I wish DP had an option for this. It is often the case that there is no need for the sub tracks to be “on” once split out in comp mode. It wastes power. I always shut them off if running in a big session file.

[Babz]

You hear stories about how some of the classic rock groups did 70 takes, or twice that, to get the one on the album. I say this about that: a) they were stoned and hadn't practiced, so the engineer just kept on until they had learned the part; and/or b) the engineer was a sadist; or c) they probably had the good one by take 10, but they couldn't store those takes as they went, so they lost it and it took 60 more before they got another like it, possibly repeating the take-10 experience 6 more times in the process. (maybe that's why bands were always breaking up!)

Shooshie

Steely Dan. 6 hours spent on two words ("well the" on the song Home At Last). Steely Dan stories are always good, but this is one of the best, mostly for the Wayne Shorter story, but the part about "well the" is classic!


http://www.jazzwax.com/2011/07/how-stee ... orter.html

[Henry Robinett]

Ha! I thought I had read this but I hadn't. I read another account if that day from Donald's Walters perspective. Great!


All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
I Have Known Mountains by Henry Robinett
https://itun.es/us/pi6C_