Anyone have experience with Warp IV wind libraries?

The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other off topic discussion.

Moderator: James Steele

Forum rules
The forum for petitions, theoretical discussion, gripes, or other matters outside deemed outside the scope of helping users make optimal use of MOTU hardware and software. Posts in other forums may be moved here at the moderators discretion. No politics or religion!!
Post Reply
User avatar
mhschmieder
Posts: 11282
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Annandale VA

Anyone have experience with Warp IV wind libraries?

Post by mhschmieder »

Has anyone used Warp IV's wind libraries? They get a certain buzz on a variety of forums, but usually the same person cross-posting their same reviews, and the libraries haven't been updated since 2009 as far as I can tell.

The flute seems especially nice, with the trumpet getting into Maynard Ferguson territory due to going an octave higher than most. The one and only review I saw from someone who also has used Sample Modeling's stuff says the Warp IV libraries CAN get better results but take a LOT of work and aren't player-friendly like Sample Modeling.

Their website has scant info so it's hard to judge in advance. Most of their audio demos sound bloody awful to me, but the few that are good are astoundingly so.

Mostly, the clarinet makes me want to vomit, but I know it's personal taste as I despise that honky style that was so popular for so long. I fought against tradition in the 80's and no one understood, then my own preferences were validated not long after by the amazing Don Byron. But this library harkens back to the tones that I rebelled against when people kept trying to get me to conform.

Also, the trombone does not impress, nor most of the saxes. But that trumpet, and the flute, are to die for. So the dilemma is whether to risk the flute at $150 or take an enormous gamble on the package deal for $700 + tax (I have no interest in the awful guitar and bass libraries that are also available). Not sure how much longer that holiday deal will be in effect.

Although I love Orange Tree Samples Passion Flute, it is very limited in what it covers, and I am now at the point in album production where I desperately need the flute parts to become a lot more varied in playing technique. I bought the new Fluffy Audio library as soon as it came out this week, on the basis of the audio demos, and found it 100% useless due to how it is scripted.

After working more on my trombone parts this week and playing more with the controllers, I am now about as happy with Sample Modeling's trombone as any of their other libraries (now on par with the excellent saxophones). It's possible though that Warp IV offers some unusual playing techniques.

Screaming Trumpet Pro is too expensive on its own, at $350, so it makes sense to go for a package if going for that library at all. Though I did see on one forum that the vendor is good about special upgrade discounts if you take a more piecemeal approach.

At any rate, having been burned on the Fluffy Audio library, I am hesitant to put money down on another flute library that may not pan out in practice, and try as I may, I still can't coax what I need out of Sample Modeling's flute and barely get acceptable results out of the alto flute. I suspect it is the flute and/or the player as opposed to the programming. Flute is a very personal instrument.

http://www.warpivmusic.com/JazzFlute.html

http://www.warpivmusic.com/Bundles.html

http://www.ericmarienthal.com/equipment.html
iMac 27" 2017 Quad-Core Intel i5 (3.8 GHz, 64 GB), OSX 13.6.1, MOTU DP 11.31, iZotope RX 10
RME Babyface Pro FS, Radial JDV Mk5, Hammond XK-4, Moog Voyager

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35
Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, Johhny Marr Jaguar, 57 LP, Danelectro 12
Eastman T486RB, T64/V, Ibanez PM2, D'angelico Deluxe SS Bari, EXL1
Guild Bari, 1512 12-string, M20, Martin OM28VTS, Larivee 0040MH
User avatar
Shooshie
Posts: 19820
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: Anyone have experience with Warp IV wind libraries?

Post by Shooshie »

The flute solos were excellent within the context presented, where the player always used the same style and technique. Sounds like they were created on keyboard, not a wind instrument, but I could be wrong. Lots of smeared chromatic fall offs, so you never really hear the ending and decay of a sustained note. May be great. I'm just saying be cautious. The limitations of flute samples usually have to do with sustained tone, vibrato, articulations and decay. If you want to make a demo that masks those things, keep it moving... fast.

Shooshie
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
User avatar
mhschmieder
Posts: 11282
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Annandale VA

Re: Anyone have experience with Warp IV wind libraries?

Post by mhschmieder »

Good feedback. Thanks.

For my current jazz project, I am not doing nearly enough flowery parts on the flute, but I also don't want to be forced into that "just" to mask problems, as I'd rather have beautiful sustains that bloom.

I was trying to keep this MIDI so I could finish it quicker, as it's mostly material that I was never sure whether it was worthwhile to develop into full compositions or album material, so it was a challenge to myself and I've been very pleased with how it's turning out but also do not consider it to be the sort of stuff I would throw at the gazillion jazz musicians I know and work with in the SF Bay Area (I'd rather hold that card for better material that is more inspiring for solos etc.).

Maybe I'm spending too much time with the MIDI and library searches now though and would actually finish it more quickly by brushing up my own rather rudimentary flute chops (I can only really claim to be an excellent clarinetist; even my sax chops were embarrassing the last time I tried, so I would need more work there as well before replacing the Sample Modeling parts and anyway am currently without a tenor and don't want to use alto or soprano sax on these particular pieces).
iMac 27" 2017 Quad-Core Intel i5 (3.8 GHz, 64 GB), OSX 13.6.1, MOTU DP 11.31, iZotope RX 10
RME Babyface Pro FS, Radial JDV Mk5, Hammond XK-4, Moog Voyager

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35
Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, Johhny Marr Jaguar, 57 LP, Danelectro 12
Eastman T486RB, T64/V, Ibanez PM2, D'angelico Deluxe SS Bari, EXL1
Guild Bari, 1512 12-string, M20, Martin OM28VTS, Larivee 0040MH
User avatar
mhschmieder
Posts: 11282
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Annandale VA

Re: Anyone have experience with Warp IV wind libraries?

Post by mhschmieder »

You just saved me a lot of money, Shooshie. :-)

I listened again to the demos, being more focused on JUST the flute (I wasn't as disciplined earlier as I was unfortunately trying to evaluate ALL of their libraries -- which are used together in the demos -- and this clearly caused me to miss important details which you pointed out).

In fact you are entirely correct that the demos are designed to hide that there is NO SUSTAIN and NO LEGATO in these libraries. Clever arrangement choices were made to avoid ever nakedly exposing anything for an honest evaluation.

Oh well, the company that makes these sample libraries is primarily a missile defense contractor.
iMac 27" 2017 Quad-Core Intel i5 (3.8 GHz, 64 GB), OSX 13.6.1, MOTU DP 11.31, iZotope RX 10
RME Babyface Pro FS, Radial JDV Mk5, Hammond XK-4, Moog Voyager

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35
Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, Johhny Marr Jaguar, 57 LP, Danelectro 12
Eastman T486RB, T64/V, Ibanez PM2, D'angelico Deluxe SS Bari, EXL1
Guild Bari, 1512 12-string, M20, Martin OM28VTS, Larivee 0040MH
User avatar
mhschmieder
Posts: 11282
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Annandale VA

Re: Anyone have experience with Warp IV wind libraries?

Post by mhschmieder »

Due to a flute comparison (very incomplete) at vi-control today, I was reminded of another flute and woodwind source that I had forgotten about as I had never gotten around to adding it to my annotations: Xsample Chamber Ensemble.

Timbrally, this is one of the most pleasing libraries and has very fluid legato, but it doesn't have much attack so I can't use it for jazz. I may consider it for classical work though as it may sometimes be what I want instead of VSL.

I'm stuck with Orange Tree Passion Flute for this project, and it's a wonderful library but not nearly flexible enough for my needs. If I keep procrastinating on finishing this album, maybe Greg will by then have an update with additional articulations and timbral shaping.
iMac 27" 2017 Quad-Core Intel i5 (3.8 GHz, 64 GB), OSX 13.6.1, MOTU DP 11.31, iZotope RX 10
RME Babyface Pro FS, Radial JDV Mk5, Hammond XK-4, Moog Voyager

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35
Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, Johhny Marr Jaguar, 57 LP, Danelectro 12
Eastman T486RB, T64/V, Ibanez PM2, D'angelico Deluxe SS Bari, EXL1
Guild Bari, 1512 12-string, M20, Martin OM28VTS, Larivee 0040MH
User avatar
mhschmieder
Posts: 11282
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Annandale VA

Re: Anyone have experience with Warp IV wind libraries?

Post by mhschmieder »

The timbre issue was my fault. I've been using mono instances of Kontakt and SWAM for woodwind and brass work, and usually this keeps things simple and doesn't make a difference (most are recorded in mono), but I didn't realize that the mics in Passion Flute are not mono-summing and instead are using left channel only!

So, it was a user error, thinking there was very little timbral shaping in this library. It took a bit of experimenting with mutes and solos to figure this out and realize why the mic choices didn't seem to have much impact. :-)

I never did figure out how to get the stereo pair to produce sound though, even after unmoving the inserts and sends. Maybe those only kick in if using the 5.1 surround version of Kontakt.

Anyway, now that I am in stereo and have the condenser hard-panned left and am getting actual signal from the hard-panned right mic (RCA ribbon), with slight adjustments to the default mix ratios (but leaving the omni fairly low as the centered third mic), I have been able to darken the timbre just enough to still let the unique brightness of this library peep through (something I want for jazz).

Mostly then, I am hoping that Greg adds a bit more performance control to this library, and possibly a second flute (even with mic adjustments, it is nice to have an alternate player and/or instrument when it comes to flutes -- especially if pairing them, which I am currently doing via Alto Flute just to keep the voices more distinct).
iMac 27" 2017 Quad-Core Intel i5 (3.8 GHz, 64 GB), OSX 13.6.1, MOTU DP 11.31, iZotope RX 10
RME Babyface Pro FS, Radial JDV Mk5, Hammond XK-4, Moog Voyager

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35
Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, Johhny Marr Jaguar, 57 LP, Danelectro 12
Eastman T486RB, T64/V, Ibanez PM2, D'angelico Deluxe SS Bari, EXL1
Guild Bari, 1512 12-string, M20, Martin OM28VTS, Larivee 0040MH
User avatar
mhschmieder
Posts: 11282
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Annandale VA

Re: Anyone have experience with Warp IV wind libraries?

Post by mhschmieder »

There has just been a HUGE update to Xsample's former "Chamber Ensemble", which has now become a full-fledged Orchestra Library that even includes two rare instruments that no one else (to my knowledge) has ever sampled: 8-string nylon guitar and clavicymbel (the latter being sort of a spinet that has actual dynamics).

The developer is quite awesome and has given me some hints on getting good attack on the flutes and other winds in this latest edition. I haven't had time with it yet, but just spent over an hour studying and comparing the user manuals, until I had gotten to the point where I now understand what was done to make the new version entirely subsume the old -- the MIDI CC system was completely redone, so it wasn't obvious to me at first that there's no need to keep the CE version on disc.

I'll write more after having time with it in real world use, but I am already impressed as the developer seems to have pulled in many of the best concepts from both SampleModeling and Vienna Instruments Pro in terms of playability, depth, and clever stuff like what happens between the notes.
iMac 27" 2017 Quad-Core Intel i5 (3.8 GHz, 64 GB), OSX 13.6.1, MOTU DP 11.31, iZotope RX 10
RME Babyface Pro FS, Radial JDV Mk5, Hammond XK-4, Moog Voyager

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35
Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, Johhny Marr Jaguar, 57 LP, Danelectro 12
Eastman T486RB, T64/V, Ibanez PM2, D'angelico Deluxe SS Bari, EXL1
Guild Bari, 1512 12-string, M20, Martin OM28VTS, Larivee 0040MH
User avatar
mhschmieder
Posts: 11282
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Annandale VA

Re: Anyone have experience with Warp IV wind libraries?

Post by mhschmieder »

I'm back to using VSL for jazz flute.

Orange Tree Samples Passion Flute is easier to get quick results out of, compared to most, in the sense that it behaves a little bit like Sample Modeling's libraries and thus doesn't require a bunch of separate tracks per articulation. But it is a bit sharp, for one thing (A=444?), and the timbre just doesn't sound professional. It can work well in pieces where a more idiomatic style is required.

I was able to cut up one flute track into sustains (with progressive vibrato), long portato, and staccato, and leave it at that. This helps with the attack (where needed) and also mitigates the usual problem with flute libraries (even when CC's can be used to control vibrato rate and depth), in that it is quite difficult to control such stuff in real time (though I haven't tried with my WX5 yet).

Even in jazz, I prefer classical timbre for flute and clarinet. Though there are occasionally pieces where I want a specific idiomatic approach. But those are rare. I prefer a darker and more expressive style for such wind instruments, whether in American Jazz or Latin Jazz.

I spent a considerable amount of time today with all of my flute sources, reading the manuals, working with the CC's and other parameters, and still can't get anything "metal" sounding out of SWAM -- it just inherently sounds like a bamboo flute. I've hit the limit with Passion Flute, but it is a useful library and I have high hopes that Greg will extend it at some point as the concept is great.

I wasted money on some other flute libraries lately that didn't pan out. The less said about them, the better. For general orchestral libraries, Xsample might work out in some contexts (but I couldn't coax it into a useful role for jazz). Very well recorded, and a beautiful, deep, dark timbre.

Meanwhile, I am upgrading my live flute tomorrow, from the lowest-level Pearl intermediate model to a hybrid higher-end intermediate/pro model (pro key work, and pro head joint w/ gold lip/riser). But I won't be able to get good enough on flute soon enough to start doing my own flute parts.

I know a gazillion phenomenal flutists by now that I work with regularly, but this isn't the right project to ask them in on, as there isn't any improvisation aside from the solos I already wrote and like as is. So they probably wouldn't find it very inspiring to contribute. I'll ask after I post some rough demos.
iMac 27" 2017 Quad-Core Intel i5 (3.8 GHz, 64 GB), OSX 13.6.1, MOTU DP 11.31, iZotope RX 10
RME Babyface Pro FS, Radial JDV Mk5, Hammond XK-4, Moog Voyager

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35
Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, Johhny Marr Jaguar, 57 LP, Danelectro 12
Eastman T486RB, T64/V, Ibanez PM2, D'angelico Deluxe SS Bari, EXL1
Guild Bari, 1512 12-string, M20, Martin OM28VTS, Larivee 0040MH
Post Reply