SOLVED: Why do Spitfire BML libs sound like the Taj Mahal?

[mhschmieder]

After several hours digging into the GUI, and trying all of the libraries in the series as well as watching the on-line tutorials (since they don't provide even web-based manuals), I am convinced that the Spitfire BML series has the reverb baked into the actual samples.

Has anyone else discovered differently? There are no GUI hooks for Reverb; nor does it show up as an insert or send effect within the Kontakt settings panel.

I'm really annoyed by this, and mad at myself for buying them all as they came along (Spitfire pre-sales don't last more than a few days in most cases, and I've been working too hard up until this New Year to have a lot of time for pre-sales investigations so often buy on vendor faith based on past experiences).

It's one thing to have pre-baked reverb, but ALL of these BML libraries sound like they were recorded in the Taj Mahal, for crying out loud! It sounds almost like 90% reverb and 10% (at most) dry signal!

As a result, it's hard to tell what the raw sound is like, but I suspect they would be quite good, and very useful, if only the reverb could either be dialed back or turned off altogether.

I don't get it, to be frank. I have most of their libraries, and NONE of the other ones suffer from this affliction. It's especially strange given that they are presented as the ultimate paint brush for flexible sound settings. And other than for the reverb, this is indeed the case.

What got me to finally dig into these libraries last weekend, was the continuing disappointment over every solo flute sound source I can find. I currently use Orange Tree Samples as it is about 4000% more playable than the next library in the list. I can't get anything sounding like a flute our of SWAM or Wallander, and don't even find they handle articulations that well (compared to their other offerings).

The problem with Passion Flute is that it has an overly bright and semi-harsh timbre, and also is a bit too aggressive even when taking full advantage of its parameters. I may find I can work it out in EQ, but I think I've reached the peak of what I can do with it in terms of phrasing. Still, it is over 50% of the way there, and nothing else is even 1% along.

Based on how mind-blowingly good Spitfire's marimba and ethnic flutes (and related instruments) are, I was hoping that BML Flute Consort would be my salvation. I went through ALL my libraries and the only ones with palatable timbre were Miroslav and Vienna, but neither is playable (discrete notes result, or mushy pseudo-legato).

At any rate, the BML stuff is consistent, so it isn't just the flutes, and I think this entire library would be my go-to for a lot of solo and small section parts, if any of us can figure out how to make it work in a real acoustical space instead of a Taj Mahal type cavern.

[kgdrum]

I don't have any of the BML libraries but I've been dipping my toes in the Albion libraries,from my understanding there is no baked in reverb in any Spitfire orchestral libraries,what I think you're hearing (users either love or hate) is the sound of the hall that Spitfire records these libraries in.
You can change this with the microphone settings.

[Shooshie]

Flute is a little like saxophone. The people making samples don't play flute or sax, so they try to make their samples sound like some flute or sax player they have heard. It never works. These are two of the hardest instruments to get right. Extremely difficult. As much as I love Wallander Instruments, neither their flutes nor saxes sound usable in their default settings. I've been able to get actual saxophone sounds by essentially reprogramming the saxes, but flute? I cannot get their flute to sound real. It's absolutely the worst of all the Wallander sounds, and not by just a little, but by a lightyear. Doesn't belong in the same collection.

I can't speak for Spitfire, though I did think their flute sound had promise when I did the shootout with their demo artist. He just wasn't any good at playing flute.

One thing I love about Wallander is that you can vary the acoustics tremendously, from an anechoic chamber to a cathedral, and you can change the size of any venue by actually specifying the dimensions of the surfaces. Why don't they ALL do this?

I'm afraid that every sample set's Achilles heel is that it was made by someone who thought "this space sounds good. Let's use it."

As far as we've come even in the past 10 years, I still feel like VI libraries are in the infancy stage. It will take artificial intelligence to make one play the way you want it to play, in the space you want it to sound, with the vibrato you wish to produce. Spitfire is no exception. If anything, the attitude of the guys who made it — as demonstrated the day of the shootout here in this forum — is one of "we can do no wrong." That's an automatic fail on some level, even if they manage to shoot pretty high.

Again, I thought their flute demo sound was pretty good. I'd like to have it. But it has to be played like a flute, preferably by a flutist. I'm a flutist, saxophonist, and woodwinds guy. I guess my standards are pretty high, but I've learned to accept that it's going to be years before the people making VIs develop a true understanding for what they are doing. VSL still comes closer than anyone I know, and yet you have to deal with the complexity of it. They've developed an almost artificial intelligence in their interface, but it's still a sample set with the problems of sample sets.

Someone is going to have to start from scratch and really figure this stuff out, from the ground up. It's not going to be easy. But if we are truly going to have great instruments made from computer software, they are going to have to ask the experts of each instrument to help them model every nuance of playing, and figure out how to make it happen with keyboards, breath control, WX-5's, and other digital analog simulators.

Sorry Spitfire isn't doing what you want, but I'll bet money that there is a control somewhere to give you at least a close-mic sound. Those guys were arrogant, but I don't think they were stupid.

Shooshie

[nk_e]

Wow. Messing with the close mics doesn't help?

Have you approached Spitfire? The few times I've needed some sort of assistance, one of them (usually Paul) gets back to me fairly quickly. Perhaps they have some insight?

[David Polich]

In my experience, Spitfire's customer support is next to nonexistent. I had problems with their
Artisan Violin and Cello, both had problems with calling up different articulations...sent them multiple emails...no response at all. I just purchased the Sacconi Violin, its pretty good, so I feel no need to
contact support.

As Shooshie pointed out, some companies have this "our poop doesn't stink" attitude. They really do. They treat complaints as insults, or they accuse the customer of being a know-nothing.
As a programmer for Yamaha and Korg and others, I know precisely what to suggest or request in
terms of a VI's playability and features, and oftentimes it strikes me that whoever coded a VI's
GUI, or even recorded the original data, isn't much of a keyboard player. Otherwise they would know what to put in a GUI or what to sample.

[mhschmieder]

It was a GUI responsiveness issue, combined with my tired over-50 eyes.

You have to be SUPER-precise with the mouse, to properly select/deselect the mics, so I didn't notice that I was being unsuccessful with my attempts at changing them, thinking the hall was so baked in that I was only hearing subtle differences (if any).

Thanks for mentioning the mics, as it forced me to revisit that part of the GUI and be more persistent. It still took quite a few tries to get the mic controls to respond -- and I've had this issue with some other recent Kontakt libraries as well and let the vendor know.

Anyway, the resolution is to shut off all mics but the Close mic, with maybe some blend from the Overheads. At least, I'm guessing that's what "C" and "O" stand for, but Spitfire doesn't believe in user manuals.

The other two mics are labeled "T" and "A", and the default setting for all BML libraries is "T" and nothing else. I'm guessing "T" stands for "Taj Mahal" . Maybe "A" stands for "Arena"?

[kgdrum]

I think actually mic-tree and ambient,they mention this in various library walk throughs

[mhschmieder]

Yes, they probably do mention it at the 18 minutes and 36 seconds mark of their hours-long videos, if one has the patience for them or can remember what was in them even right after watching them. They are no substitute for user manuals, short-term, long-term, or even as an introduction.

And I must repeat that requiring a browser to launch while doing a DAW session is an extreme no-no -- especially for those of us who must maintain persistent research tracks on many subjects and for whom there is no such thing as a low-resource browser instance.

[mhschmieder]

I'm far too tired at this hour, and after another super-long work day, to do any tracking to see whether the BML Flute Consort solo patch is flexible enough for realistic phrasing (especially in the jazz context), but I just want to second Shooshie's comment that flute for some reason seems the hardest to get right via sample libraries or even modeled VI's.

Perhaps it's because the flute is the closest to the human voice of any instrument. My dad told me that his rather famous teacher (perhaps not as well known today as when he was alive) claimed that you must first have a good voice to have a good flute tone/timbre, because the flute is just and tension of your natural voice -- unlike other winds/brass (or at least at a much higher ratio).

[corbo-billy]

I think actually mic-tree and ambient,they mention this in various library walk throughs

It's correct: "A" for Ambient .

Here is an excerpt from one of their manuals for different takes microphones.

MICROPHONE / MIX SETTINGS

"C - Close mics, a selection of valve mics placed for optimum focus close to the instruments. This mic control is great to add in for added definition and at times a bit of “rounding of sound”, in isolation it can be a way of achieving a more intimate or pop-music style sound.
T - Tree. This refers to the “Decca” tree of three mics placed above the conductors podium. In the case of Albion priceless vintage Neumann M50s. These are placed to give the ultimate sound of the bandand the hall. There are the default mic position that loads in with each patch.
A - Ambient. A set of condenser mics placed high up in the gallery, away from the band. This mic position gives a massive amount of stereo spread and room sound over the band. Great mixed with the other mics, but also ideal when fed to your Ls & Rs speakers as it sends for true surround informa- tion.
O - Outriggers, a set of vintage mics placed wide apart to the left and right of the tree. These give a similar balance of room and band but with a broader stereo spread. The effect of this mic is some- where between the tree and ambient mics.

[mhschmieder]

Oh, good, you found a manual that describes them.

I have a few manuals for some of their libraries (usually found in strange parts of their website and downloaded piecemeal), but didn't feel like hunting and pecking through my file system to find which ones (older ones, mostly) have manuals.

Good to know they have remained consistent; they probably have Kontakt scripting infrastructure that they reuse on most libraries. Overall, it's a good system, even if a bit too finicky due to resolution.

For solo flute work, I think I'll just stick with the close mics and maybe a tiny touch of one or more of the others, as I can't handle that particular hall sound for the BML stuff in particular. It's strange, because normally I would prefer the Decca-Tree arrangement, and then add mild reverb in production.

It's funny, but just as I was about to close out and commit this comment, the local streamed classical station started a James Galway recording of Vivaldi flute concerti accompanied by the New Irish Chamber Symphony, and the overall timbre sounds very much like the close-only mic channel of Spitfire BML Flute Consort, with the overall hall ambience sounding like a mild version of the other mics in this library. No album production notes on-line to check against.

I have always preferred the British woodwind sound over any other, and like their strings about the best next to Berlin and Vienna, which is what originally drew me to start buying Spitfire orchestral products to augment my complete VSL collection. But I am mostly using Spitfire's marimba library -- which is without peer -- and their ethnic winds and related Producer Series libraries.

[Shooshie]

The other two mics are labeled "T" and "A", and the default setting for all BML libraries is "T" and nothing else. I'm guessing "T" stands for "Taj Mahal" . Maybe "A" stands for "Arena"?

LOL!

Made my day, Mark.

Shooshie

[HCMarkus]

The other two mics are labeled "T" and "A", and the default setting for all BML libraries is "T" and nothing else. I'm guessing "T" stands for "Taj Mahal" . Maybe "A" stands for "Arena"?

LOL!

Made my day, Mark.

Shooshie

T&A in a VI. Love it.

[mhschmieder]

OK, now that I know what to look for and don't get fooled by poor responsiveness in Kontakt for controls that require pixel-precise mouse actions, I have been successful in playing with a bunch of the BML libraries, and will say that I think they are the most natural sounding solo and small section libraries out there at the moment.

For my jazz album, however, I need something a bit less "classical" sounding, so Greg's excellent Passion Flute (Orange Tree Samples) remains my choice, unless I can get my flute playing chops up to studio level and move away from the MIDI approach altogether.

Passion Flute can stand improvement, but that is quite likely given the history of Orange Tree products. Mostly, it needs more than one flute choice, which is now pretty common with flute libraries as one may need a darker or brighter timbre -- especially if layering two flutes. I go with alto flute now for almost all doubling, just to help the parts stand out better.

Really though, what Greg has done is nothing short of amazing, as this library seems to handle phrasing and articulation better than the Sample Modeling flute library (though I now use that one for alto flute, instead of VSL, just because it blends better with Passion Flute).

With more time, I may find that I can bend BML to jazz needs, as it has a lot of programming possibilities, but time is money (or at least an inertia-killer) so I'll continue with Passion Flute for my jazz projects, but will probably start pulling in the BML stuff for my chamber works soon.

[corbo-billy]

A less academic but useful solution if you have Reaktor.


http://www.native-instruments.com/fr/re ... show/3873/