Corp responsibility to report serious bugs to public?

[stubbsonic]

But mostly I want to say that when there are bugs that affect a very substantial part of your work, and the developer is unresponsive and some fellow users seem to be sending you to a "time-out"; that can add insult to injury.

Let me address the "time-out" comment, just in case it was relating to my moving this topic into the OT forum. I think it's justified when the name of the topic starts with "Corp responsibility..." The main thrust was not the bug, but an expression of frustration by a user at what he perceives as MOTU's lack of adequate response to and acknowledgement of bug/bugs that seem to cause him more inconvenience than other users. The post is more about corporate policy than the actual bug itself, hence those posts end up in this discussion.

NOTE: Post amended. Remove my comments dealing with substance of the original post.

My "time-out" reference wasn't referring to that.

[toodamnhip]

Yeah, it's tough. Bugs that are clearly a "This is just broken" kind of thing are what I would imagine to be high on the priority list, but squeaky wheel bugs need to be addressed early as well. And those intermittent ones, well....

I don't think MOTU just ignores bugs. I think it's a matter of priorities. As far as reporting those bugs, who knows what their decision making process might be. I'm sure it's not easy.

Now as far as the automation problems you're experiencing, I'm happy to say (happy for me anyway) that I have not experienced ANY problems with automation in DP9.01. There were some glitches with automation editing in the first release, but 9.01 seems to have cleaned things up. We see this so much - some folks experiencing repeatable bugs while it's smooth sailing for others. It's got to be a developer's nightmare. I hope you sort things out.

Phil

Thanks Phil, I too hope I can get this sorted out. I don’t think DP ignores bugs either. I just believe that certain serious bugs deserve a warning from the company. I could list some companies that do this, and they are not going under. And when I see they are open about issues, i have nothing but respect for them. By the way, these bugs don;t have to be advertised in a glossy ad in some recording mag. They can be posted here, and , the language can rwad- “SOME” users are experiencing mute automation issues with certain plug ins in DP 9. If you suspect this, please check your event list to ensure plug in mutes are listed. If you file suddenly plays back incorrectly during a session, a re start might be necessary to re-enable the mutes”.

More or less. Nothing earth shattering, but at least something RESPONSIBLE, communicative and showing respect for people who might get hung up by these problems.

[toodamnhip]

My take is somewhere in the middle.
If the problem exists with Waves mostly, then it's due to some problem with Waves plug ins. 90% of the time this is due to the plug in manufacturer not following AU/VST spec, not the DAW maker.

Yes, some companies report their bugs. Ableton does, and it's a mixed bag for them, Emagic used to when they owned Logic, Apple and MOTU are mum, but there's no shortage of ways to find out how to track down bugs. It's entirely up to MOTU how they deal with this. I've seen the same sort of rants about how I dunno? say Ableton for instance should PAY BACK! the end users for a buggy upgrade etc. So it doesn't really solve anything to make it public. Sometimes it gives more fuel to end users to blame one party or the other. Worst case example of this backfiring? Steinberg acknowledged bugs in Cubase 3, proceeded to announce the bug fixes were coming, then announced version 4. They had to admit that no fixes were coming for 3. Angry end users doesn't cover it.

Another point with this, if it's uncertain who is at fault, Waves or MOTU, then why dramatically say anything beyond that you're working with Waves etc? You would still be left with the same result, and as it stands you know not to use Waves until the next DP9 update so? I have a few Waves products, but let's be honest here, the Waveshell way of doing things has been an issue creating problem forever. Try removing Waves from your system, and if that stops automation from being an issue then it's most definitely Waves. The Waveshell could easily be affecting other plug ins in your plug ins folders. (I've had a plug in in the Components folder actually do this!)

Nobody who runs live performance software should ever use a plug in they're not 100% positive is working in their DAW. When I was performing out with Live I wouldn't use Reaktor at the time because it was still unstable in OSX.

It’s not “just Waves”. Of course DP works perfectly with it’s own plug ins. That’s almost always been the case. I have never just used DP plugs.

[toodamnhip]

Jim,
the reason I usually have you blocked is because you seem to have some sort of pre conceived idea that every post of mine has as it’s motive, some hidden agenda to stir up the community and make trouble for us all.
Since I know what’s in my head and you don’t, I know that the post was written after months of this issue remaining unresolved, and after serious time and money being lost, and with the intention of improving BIGGER issues such as bug reporting. I wish MOTU a long and happy life.

I could go on but I doubt you will “hear” or listen.
It would be nice if you’d just read my point and take it for what it is. But you have a long history of adding ulterior motives to my comments. I will go back to ignoring you in my system settings, and, with all due respect, since you seem unable to take what I write at face value, and really, with NO disrespect meant, I would advise you block my comments as I do yours.
That way, I cannot bother you with this perceived ulterior motive to hack and cut into MOTU.

We all have our styles of posting here at the forum. The “block” button is good for the circumstance where users make each other a bit nuts. I am sure you are a nice person but I think the block function is appropriate in this instance.

[James Steele]

So then if you have him blocked, you should know that he can't read your post so why address it to him?

Personally, there are some people I wouldn't mind blocking but I'm the admin and thus have no choice in the matter.

[Michael Canavan]

It’s not “just Waves”. Of course DP works perfectly with it’s own plug ins. That’s almost always been the case. I have never just used DP plugs.

You're either ignoring this part or writing it off.

I have a few Waves products, but let's be honest here, the Waveshell way of doing things has been an issue creating problem forever. Try removing Waves from your system, and if that stops automation from being an issue then it's most definitely Waves. The Waveshell could easily be affecting other plug ins in your plug ins folders. (I've had a plug in in the Components folder actually do this!)

[toodamnhip]

It’s not “just Waves”. Of course DP works perfectly with it’s own plug ins. That’s almost always been the case. I have never just used DP plugs.

You're either ignoring this part or writing it off.

I have a few Waves products, but let's be honest here, the Waveshell way of doing things has been an issue creating problem forever. Try removing Waves from your system, and if that stops automation from being an issue then it's most definitely Waves. The Waveshell could easily be affecting other plug ins in your plug ins folders. (I've had a plug in in the Components folder actually do this!)

I can’t do without Waves. This isn;t an option. Too many mixes, too many years, and, to me, they’re generally the best products out there.

[toodamnhip]

So then if you have him blocked, you should know that he can't read your post so why address it to him?

Personally, there are some people I wouldn't mind blocking but I'm the admin and thus have no choice in the matter.

Well,.
1) He can click it and open it if he likes. ( I am not sure blocking a person does;t keep them from seeing my posts, but I am not sure about that).
2) I had him blocked when I started this post and he found it. I clicked his response hoping for something different this time.
3) I actually thought of your predicament when writing about the blocks and felt for you man. You do indeed have to see it all. My condolences.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I can’t do without Waves. This isn;t an option. Too many mixes, too many years, and, to me, they’re generally the best products out there.

...except the automation part. Sounds like your stuck.

So is it only automation? Or are there other aspects to this we (non-Wavers) should know about?

[Michael Canavan]

Or, you can see the logic in what I am saying and write MOTU and tell them these SERIOUS bugs are unacceptable and irresponsible in a professional environment.

I'm not trying to attack you, but have you done the basics? By the basics I mean have you attempted to isolate the plug ins that cause this behavior? There's no way in hell MOTU have the resources to cover every plug in, hardware, MIDI and audio driver, software combination out there. What is broken for some is not always broken for others, and obviously your exact system specs weren't covered in the betas.

If you make a living off of working with DP and a computer then it isn't at all a waste of time or money to spend a solid day isolating exactly what is causing issues in your system. If you can name the problem it's much easier for MOTU to fix it, that's no lie, but if you can only say it mostly happens with Waves and some others... then they're not going to be of much help.

You probably don't want to hear this, but this is what I would do in your situation:
It's likely either a common error code wise with plug in implementation, an error plug in hosting code wise OR a driver that messes with the plug in or host. Since you mention that MAS plug ins do not exhibit this behavior that's all it could be.

Take all the Waves components out of your folders into a desktop folder. That's four locations at least-
/ Applications
/Library/Application Support
/Library/Audio/Plug Ins/ (AU and or VST, VST3 AAX etc.)

The sheer amount of copy protection that Waves implement is going to make it the most likely culprit period. Run through the steps to replicate the problem with the other plug ins that have issues.

If that doesn't solve it, then personally I would take out all third party drivers; mouse; keyboards; MIDI; audio etc. if it's still an issue then the fun begins.

Remove half your plug ins, then another half etc. until the problem goes away. This way you end up with a smaller group of plug ins that might be the issue.

All this can bee done in less than a day, and you have 100% isolated the plug ins, drivers etc. that DP9 is having issues with, with no possibility of giving a false positive.

The main thing I think you forget is that it's very possibly the plug in manufacturers who are screwing with their code, or forgetting to remove Windows specific calls, VST code in AU, or using code Apple doesn't approve of. With that in mind why would MOTU want to announce problems with Waves plug ins if it's Waves that tweaked their AU's slightly to work well in Logic, which messes with DP? <-- This has happened, just as it used to happen with VSTs in Logic 4 on OS9.

I'm with you, I love third party plug ins, and use a ton, but without a shadow of a doubt AU/VST plug ins are 90% of the problems with DAWs, and at least 90% of the time the problem is the plug in developers not MOTU or Ableton or Steinberg etc.

[toodamnhip]

Hey Michael,
There’s some good advise in there. Unfortunately, it would mater not because all my projects use a ton of plug ins and these mixes are sold and paid for, (and often released or awaiting fn. approval by rec companies). They have to be what they are.

As far as spending loads of time to dissect the culprits, helping MOTU like I help other companies I work with, MOTU’s beta tester policies are beyond my understanding and I, along with many others I know, have not been allowed to help in a more formal way.

I have ofter to liaise with MOTU on behalf of various companies having issues, and honestly, I really should be the guy they consult because it seems like I use automation very very heavily compared to many users. But whatever. It’s all getting old. Hopefully MOTU fixes this stuff soon.

And I thoroughly disagree with some Nation members here stating that a major plug in co. like Waves can just be “discounted as problematic”, “shut off”, “pulled out” etc....or that their plug ins are somehow written badly. Give me a break. Waves is a MAJOR plug in that just HAS to work in any DAW. It is my understanding that “under the hood”, it is DP that makes problems for plug in and VI manufacturers, due to certain unique archetectures . Though every DAW has it’s issues. But there are things about DP that are unique in several areas. I am capable of loving DP and being critical of it’s issues. Some here are in a kind of “blind love” and blame everyone but DP. It’s not about blame anyway. It just needs to be fixed...it’s taking too damn long! And MOTU is too quiet on bugs.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I hear you. I asked and was recommended as a beta tester. I guess I'm no qualified. Lol.

[BKK-OZ]

...As far as spending loads of time to dissect the culprits, helping MOTU like I help other companies I work with, MOTU’s beta tester policies are beyond my understanding and I, along with many others I know, have not been allowed to help in a more formal way.

I have ofter to liaise with MOTU on behalf of various companies having issues, and honestly, I really should be the guy they consult because it seems like I use automation very very heavily compared to many users. But whatever. It’s all getting old. Hopefully MOTU fixes this stuff soon...

I'm not sure why you aren't willing to do some detailed trouble shooting here. So what if you are not part of the beta program?

Any beta program I have ever participated in started off with me doing some stuff informally - usually out of self interest, usually because there was something going wrong that I needed to get fixed. Over time, I became known to various companies, and have subsequently been invited into more programs than I have time for. Unless you are otherwise connected to a company, there is really no other way to get involved.

Saying that you are not going to isolate the problem because you are not part of the beta program isn't going to (a) solve the problem, or (b) get you on the beta program.

Michael is right, it is really pretty unrealistic for you to say to MOTU 'fix it', when there are literally an infinite number of configurations to consider. If you can isolate the problem to a specific set of circumstances with as minimal a configuration as possible, MOTU have a shot. I haven't read the whole thread, but I assume you have raised a tech note with detailed information?

Failing that, how can you expect them to find, much less fix, your particular issue?

[Michael Canavan]

Hey Michael,
There’s some good advise in there. Unfortunately, it would mater not because all my projects use a ton of plug ins and these mixes are sold and paid for, (and often released or awaiting fn. approval by rec companies). They have to be what they are.

Sure, but if currently those tracks do not work with your set up then you have to do something right?

As far as spending loads of time to dissect the culprits, helping MOTU like I help other companies I work with, MOTU’s beta tester policies are beyond my understanding and I, along with many others I know, have not been allowed to help in a more formal way.

I have ofter to liaise with MOTU on behalf of various companies having issues, and honestly, I really should be the guy they consult because it seems like I use automation very very heavily compared to many users. But whatever. It’s all getting old. Hopefully MOTU fixes this stuff soon.

I couldn't care less to be a companies beta tester, but I've done everything I've described to make sure I had a stable set up, and to be able to flatly state "Battery 3 seems to crash Live every time, and Live sometimes crashes without Battery 3 playing in the mix." Whereupon Ableton wrote back that there was an error in Battery 3's code that made it crash Live. I didn't use Battery 3 until an update from NI that mentioned this problem.

And I thoroughly disagree with some Nation members here stating that a major plug in co. like Waves can just be “discounted as problematic”, “shut off”, “pulled out” etc....or that their plug ins are somehow written badly. Give me a break. Waves is a MAJOR plug in that just HAS to work in any DAW. It is my understanding that “under the hood”, it is DP that makes problems for plug in and VI manufacturers, due to certain unique archetectures . Though every DAW has it’s issues. But there are things about DP that are unique in several areas. I am capable of loving DP and being critical of it’s issues. Some here are in a kind of “blind love” and blame everyone but DP. It’s not about blame anyway. It just needs to be fixed...it’s taking too damn long! And MOTU is too quiet on bugs.

Waves is a major plug in company true, but nothing about that says they have to work with every DAW. Do you remember when DP implemented AU? I was still using Logic, but it was big news. MOTU had rigorously followed AU spec, but Apple had privately without telling anyone tweaked the AU code in OSX to fit Logic's idiosyncrasies. AU's ran like crap in DP and Apple had to admit the mistake.
This also is true of plug in manufacturers. DP might be unique architecture wise but it's got nothing on Logic that way, for instance the AU spec can handle MIDI out from a plug in, but Logic cannot so no AU's are coded to handle MIDI out. DP and other AU hosts simply aren't enough of a reason to code for this feature.
Waves or any plug in maker really has to keep up with Logic first, and it's very possible that they end up tweaking the code for Logic's weirdness's leaving DP with issues. Waves popularity has zero to do with their ability to make stable plug ins, Native Instruments is insanely popular and at various times Reaktor was unusable on OSX, Absynth was a total CPU pig in Windows etc.
Here's the deal though, you have to do the work if you want a stable system. There's no way around that, switching DAWs won't make that go away. I switched to Logic because DP had some issues in 2.72 that I got worked up about, then Logic 7 was unstable as heck for me... All DAWs have bad moments, and again 90% of it's due to plug ins or drivers. You put scientific method to your rants and isolate the problems you have in DP9 and not a person alive would be unsympathetic. As it stands you state things like

Waves is a MAJOR plug in that just HAS to work in any DAW.

and at a place called Motunation where you blame DP9 for the problems on your system without any testing done on your part , and you wonder why you get no sympathy?

My personal feelings? if you continue to complain without going through all the steps it takes to figure out what is wrong then you deserve a messed up system. Harsh I know, but you're obviously old enough to know better than to just be angry that something doesn't work like it should. I understand not wanting to do all that testing, but this isn't the first time I've suggested trying to find the plug in or driver that's conflicting with DP. You apparently make good money with DP, yet you refuse to run the series of tests to isolate exactly what your problems are? Even if it's DP, even if some issue is there with a certain Waves or other plug in that turns out to be MOTU's fault, knowing not to use it is insanely valuable. Not knowing exactly which plug ins or drivers are hosing DP and ranting that it must be DP has zero value.

[toodamnhip]

OK Michael,
Congratulations! You get the semi annual “Shooting the Messenger” award.

I report bugs and potential negligence and it is “my system” I need to stop all productions and tear my rig apart on behalf of MOTU right? Hilarious.

Listen man, this is a KNOWN ISSUE!
It is not “just my system”.
It has been replicated by Waves and MOTU!

Read that five times and tell me again how I need to tear my system apart and how I am at fault. Oh yeah, and I “deserve” to have a broken system, right Michael?

My main point, missed by certain DP fans in the loading of their "shoot the messenger" shot guns, is that MOTU needs to be responsible enough to let us users know when there is a MAJOR bug that threatens ones mixes.

I even wrote that I understand that it must be a difficult bug and that they are most likely working on it. But do they report it to us? ?????

NO!

Any more questions or do I need to write this out with crayons?

I will add this, I get private emails from members here stating that they completely support me but don’t have the energy to deal with the kind of attacks that occur here when one reports a problem.
Why is that? Why do respected members here not want to deal with members of the forum who attack the messengers?

Food for thought.

DP9 is broken! Get that?
DP can be broken in ways that create a responsibility for MOTU to REPORT the issues to the public. Get that?

Crayons, crayons, I need more crayons.