Corp responsibility to report serious bugs to public?

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:26 pm

SO I will start off by saying I am super pissed off that many DP automation bugs remained unresolved. For LONG periods of time.
And, various iterations of DP break the automation after it finally gets fixed every YEAR or so.
It is not only with Waves, but various other manufacturers that DP snap shot automation, and various other automations, just get plained screwed up.
And it is inconvenient at best. But at WORST, it seems simply IRRESPONSIBLE!

MUTE AUTOMATION IN DP 9 is BROKEN!!!

When mute automation breaks with Waves and other plug ins, and there is NO corporate reporting of this bug, is this responsible?
Some bugs are “inconvenient”. Others are egregious and endanger entire mixes!
The mute automation bug is one where, out of nowhere, various plug ins will stop automating their mutes. It seems like mainly Waves because I use Waves so much. But it happens with other plugs too.

And MOTU has known of this for a LONG time.

When we earn our livings off of music and our software BREAKS to where a mix FAILS, and MOTU knows about it...well, should they WARN us?

Or should’t Waves warn us too?
If this were medicine, people would be dying due to these serious types of bugs. Good thing it’s not.

I don’t know who is responsible, Waves or Motu.

But I for one am sick and tired of serious bugs never being reported by companies!
I recall when quiting DP 5 resulted in all sys ex data being erased so that when one restarted a session file, all their saved synth sys ex was GONE! This could endanger 1000s of dollars on any one session. Did MOTU report this serious bug to us all? NO NO NO NO. I had to report it.

OK, well now, if any of you have Waves or other 3rd party mute automation, I want you to understand, it can stop out of nowhere in DP 9. Plug ins stay off or on depending on their starting state, but do not automate mutes. And the result can be a thoroughly screwed up your mix. When you discover it isn;t working at one point, one needs to re start the computer and session file. Then, suddenly, the mutes are back in the event lists.

You think this is no big deal? Nothing to publish and WARN us about?...
OK...
Any of you using DP 9 in a show in Vegas? Or any big professional LIVE use? The Super Bowl? etc?

Who hear wants to tell me that this type of bug isn’t serious and shouldn’t be broadcast by the companies involved?

Professional standards seem to not exist when it comes to egregious software bugs.

And as long as we, as users, continue to put up with this irresponsible corporate, company behavior, it will continue.

So here’s your choice in my opinion.
You can all leave me out here on a limb, looking like the one jerk complaining. Or, you can see the logic in what I am saying and write MOTU and tell them these SERIOUS bugs are unacceptable and irresponsible in a professional environment. They at least need to be published so one knows their Vegas show is about to get screwed up. etc.

Some bugs are inconvenient, need a work around etc. I am not talking about those minor annoyances. I am talking about bugs that BREAK mixes!!!!

So, when you open DP9, look in all tracks to see if you see your mute automation. Beware.

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:28 pm

No offense... but given the title of your post and the general nature as relates to how a company is conducting itself, and that it's a bit of a rant, it is being moved to MOTU Theoretical/Gripes, etc.

Gravity Jim · Post by **Gravity Jim** » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:19 pm

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:41 pm

Call MOTU tech support. Write them. I don't know what more any of us here can do?

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:27 am

Jim,
When you mention “again”, as “Not in this thread again", it shows it’s been an issue for a long time.
As sick as you may be of hearing about it, (and by the way, you don’t have to read it if it bothers you so much), I am sick of these automation issues LASTING throughout the ages and incarnations of DP. Believe me man, I lose enough time and money already with this problem. Coming here to complain is not my idea of a picnic!!! Unlike you, I have had enough of this issue. I am pissed, and I am griping.
And I have good reason. I am not making any of this up. It sucks and it ruins projects, especially if one automates heavily and is not aware of this bug.

Anyway, my “gripe” isn’t so much that there is a bug. I am sure it is difficult for some reason and that’s why it persists.
My gripe is that these companies should be responsible enough to post dangerous bugs and warn users.

James,
sorry, didn’t realize it should go to “gripes”. But you’re right. I’m-a-“griping"

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:42 am

I am going to chime my own thread here and add that I think I know WHY serious bugs are not reported to the public. It is OLD school thought from an old age past.

MOTU and other companies want to look SO perfect! They seem afraid to acknowledge bugs for fear of losing market share.
But that is such OLD school thought,
Today’s apps are made are tested and interacted with much more as a group. And they test as a group using social media. And this is the TRUE future. Like it or not. I watch my daughter test apps and I see the new companies use their customers/users as a PARTNER.

So, to me, MOTU may be old school, from an old advertising age where one has to always look “perfect". There are many software companies out there that are much more open with their bugs. They are closer to the future of software development compared to MOTU in this one aspect at least.

I hope you’re reading MOTU and hear what I say. No one will fault you guys for being as helpful to users as possible, and that means public BUG reports when necessary and a more open beta phase where possible. etc!

Don;t be afraid to help us by being communicative with potentially catastrophic bugs...Simple.

stubbsonic · Post by **stubbsonic** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:07 am

I completely agree. I think MOTU could and should maintain a KNOWN BUGS list that is public. Do they? But this would need to be bugs that they know are issues for MOST users. If they listed bugs that only affect people in rare circumstances, the list might not be all that helpful.

I think this is a problem that could be solved here, if someone wanted to take it on. We do have threads that are bug reports, but it is difficult to boil things down as those get pretty long and winding. First, maybe we make sure there is one kind of official bug report thread for DP9, and if reported bugs could be kept in a simple bulleted list (perhaps with some links to further info) that could be a useful resource. Folks can still start new topics that are bug-specific, but they could be cross-referenced in the official list.

Then as MOTU is able to resolve things, it'll be nice to see "FIXED" or "WORKAROUND" as status markers on the list.

As a person who has been badly burnt by updates breaking things, I've learned that I have to take responsibility for letting my expectations be inflated by marketing. I always have to be ready to run the previous version. But mostly I want to say that when there are bugs that affect a very substantial part of your work, and the developer is unresponsive and some fellow users seem to be sending you to a "time-out"; that can add insult to injury.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:54 am

So much to respond to here.

First, what company publicizes defects? Every piece of software has bugs but announcing them is not a great idea. Accentuate the positive. It's called marketing. Do you tell your clients what you weak points are before accepting a project; or do you have no weak points?

Second, all bugs don't exist in all systems. Why tell a user who won't have a problem that they'll have a problem.

Lastly, no company tests their software on every machine combination. Every time I've installed a Waves product it immediately screws up my system. So I don't buy or use anything from them. There are alternatives. If it's that bad for so long, move to a different DAW.

Phil O · Post by **Phil O** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:03 am

Yeah, it's tough. Bugs that are clearly a "This is just broken" kind of thing are what I would imagine to be high on the priority list, but squeaky wheel bugs need to be addressed early as well. And those intermittent ones, well....

I don't think MOTU just ignores bugs. I think it's a matter of priorities. As far as reporting those bugs, who knows what their decision making process might be. I'm sure it's not easy.

Now as far as the automation problems you're experiencing, I'm happy to say (happy for me anyway) that I have not experienced ANY problems with automation in DP9.01. There were some glitches with automation editing in the first release, but 9.01 seems to have cleaned things up. We see this so much - some folks experiencing repeatable bugs while it's smooth sailing for others. It's got to be a developer's nightmare. I hope you sort things out.

Phil

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:10 am

Maybe pull Waves out of the system and try again? Just sayin...

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:35 am

stubbsonic wrote:But mostly I want to say that when there are bugs that affect a very substantial part of your work, and the developer is unresponsive and some fellow users seem to be sending you to a "time-out"; that can add insult to injury.

Let me address the "time-out" comment, just in case it was relating to my moving this topic into the OT forum. I think it's justified when the name of the topic starts with "Corp responsibility..." The main thrust was not the bug, but an expression of frustration by a user at what he perceives as MOTU's lack of adequate response to and acknowledgement of bug/bugs that seem to cause him more inconvenience than other users. The post is more about corporate policy than the actual bug itself, hence those posts end up in this discussion.

NOTE: Post amended. Remove my comments dealing with substance of the original post.

Gravity Jim · Post by **Gravity Jim** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:28 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:So much to respond to here.

First, what company publicizes defects? Every piece of software has bugs but announcing them is not a great idea. Accentuate the positive. It's called marketing. Do you tell your clients what you weak points are before accepting a project; or do you have no weak points?

Second, all bugs don't exist in all systems. Why tell a user who won't have a problem that they'll have a problem.

Lastly, no company tests their software on every machine combination. Every time I've installed a Waves product it immediately screws up my system. So I don't buy or use anything from them. There are alternatives. If it's that bad for so long, move to a different DAW.

This. All this. Pretending all this isn't true is just trolling. I don't pretend to know why somebody would be interested in causing controversy for its own sake, especially when the stakes here are so very, very low. But clearly some do.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:39 pm

Except it's not true for everyone.

Michael Canavan · Post by **Michael Canavan** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:10 pm

My take is somewhere in the middle.
If the problem exists with Waves mostly, then it's due to some problem with Waves plug ins. 90% of the time this is due to the plug in manufacturer not following AU/VST spec, not the DAW maker.

Yes, some companies report their bugs. Ableton does, and it's a mixed bag for them, Emagic used to when they owned Logic, Apple and MOTU are mum, but there's no shortage of ways to find out how to track down bugs. It's entirely up to MOTU how they deal with this. I've seen the same sort of rants about how I dunno? say Ableton for instance should PAY BACK! the end users for a buggy upgrade etc. So it doesn't really solve anything to make it public. Sometimes it gives more fuel to end users to blame one party or the other. Worst case example of this backfiring? Steinberg acknowledged bugs in Cubase 3, proceeded to announce the bug fixes were coming, then announced version 4. They had to admit that no fixes were coming for 3. Angry end users doesn't cover it.

Another point with this, if it's uncertain who is at fault, Waves or MOTU, then why dramatically say anything beyond that you're working with Waves etc? You would still be left with the same result, and as it stands you know not to use Waves until the next DP9 update so? I have a few Waves products, but let's be honest here, the Waveshell way of doing things has been an issue creating problem forever. Try removing Waves from your system, and if that stops automation from being an issue then it's most definitely Waves. The Waveshell could easily be affecting other plug ins in your plug ins folders. (I've had a plug in in the Components folder actually do this!)

Nobody who runs live performance software should ever use a plug in they're not 100% positive is working in their DAW. When I was performing out with Live I wouldn't use Reaktor at the time because it was still unstable in OSX.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:18 pm

stubbsonic wrote:I completely agree. I think MOTU could and should maintain a KNOWN BUGS list that is public. Do they? But this would need to be bugs that they know are issues for MOST users. If they listed bugs that only affect people in rare circumstances, the list might not be all that helpful.

I think this is a problem that could be solved here, if someone wanted to take it on. We do have threads that are bug reports, but it is difficult to boil things down as those get pretty long and winding. First, maybe we make sure there is one kind of official bug report thread for DP9, and if reported bugs could be kept in a simple bulleted list (perhaps with some links to further info) that could be a useful resource. Folks can still start new topics that are bug-specific, but they could be cross-referenced in the official list.

Then as MOTU is able to resolve things, it'll be nice to see "FIXED" or "WORKAROUND" as status markers on the list.

As a person who has been badly burnt by updates breaking things, I've learned that I have to take responsibility for letting my expectations be inflated by marketing. I always have to be ready to run the previous version. But mostly I want to say that when there are bugs that affect a very substantial part of your work, and the developer is unresponsive and some fellow users seem to be sending you to a "time-out"; that can add insult to injury.

I have thought of going back to DP 8 because of the mute automation bug. But then I wonder what will happen to muted MIDI notes if one goes back to DP 8? Will they be invisible? Will they play as if never muted?
DP9= lose one kind of mute, automation.
DP8= lose another kind of mute, MIDI....lol...

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