Corp responsibility to report serious bugs to public?

[Robert Randolph]

OK Michael,
Congratulations! You get the semi annual “Shooting the Messenger” award.

I report bugs and potential negligence and it is “my system” I need to stop all productions and tear my rig apart on behalf of MOTU right? Hilarious.

Listen man, this is a KNOWN ISSUE!
It is not “just my system”.
It has been replicated by Waves and MOTU!

Read that five times and tell me again how I need to tear my system apart and how I am at fault. Oh yeah, and I “deserve” to have a broken system, right Michael?

My main point, missed by certain DP fans in the loading of their "shoot the messenger" shot guns, is that MOTU needs to be responsible enough to let us users know when there is a MAJOR bug that threatens ones mixes.

I even wrote that I understand that it must be a difficult bug and that they are most likely working on it. But do they report it to us? ?????

NO!

Any more questions or do I need to write this out with crayons?

I will add this, I get private emails from members here stating that they completely support me but don’t have the energy to deal with the kind of attacks that occur here when one reports a problem.
Why is that? Why do respected members here not want to deal with members of the forum who attack the messengers?

Food for thought.

DP9 is broken! Get that?
DP can be broken in ways that create a responsibility for MOTU to REPORT the issues to the public. Get that?

Crayons, crayons, I need more crayons.

Sometimes it's the messenger that's the issue, not the message.

You need to fix your writing style if you expect people to take you seriously and respond respectfully.

[James Steele]

You need to fix your writing style if you expect people to take you seriously and respond respectfully.

Agreed. Tone it down, TDH. Lash out at MOTU all you want. Use caution when you lash out other users here.

[toodamnhip]

You all have the option to look at it in one of two ways:
1) I just “lash out” at fellow members here.
2) There is a serious problem caused by software manufacturers that has pissed off a user, wearing the user’s “patience” thin, and rightly so.

If a user has a reason to be upset, and members tell him he “deserves it”, well, that is one kind of response for sure. I agree it is everyone’s right to think what they want about me. I would like you all to understand why and what I write. There are members here that have gotten my point.

But I stick by my opinions and what I have said. I gotta go play music now. Live, Jazz, no software. Nice change of pace.

[Michael Canavan]

Listen man, this is a KNOWN ISSUE!
It is not “just my system”.
It has been replicated by Waves and MOTU!

Really? why didn't you say at first that MOTU and Waves had confirmed the bug?
What are you complaining about then? Seriously, no joke, no hyperbole, no animosity.
I'm assuming neither Waves or MOTU are taking responsibility, and really it doesn't and shouldn't matter to you whose at fault. What matters is you having a working system and at this point that means using other plug ins than Waves in DP9 for the interim, period.

Here's the gist of what I'm saying:
Software has bugs. It's up to you to do something to lesson the affect it has on you.

Going to a DP and MOTU centric forum and stating that MOTU is 100% at fault in a bug that involves third party software where you haven't, and I would bet cannot, be certain it's MOTU and not Waves etc. isn't going to do anything more than give you some people to argue with, especially when you poo poo spending time troubleshooting the problem yourself. I'm not sure exactly how that's shooting the messenger to state all this?

[toodamnhip]

Listen man, this is a KNOWN ISSUE!
It is not “just my system”.
It has been replicated by Waves and MOTU!

Really? why didn't you say at first that MOTU and Waves had confirmed the bug?
What are you complaining about then? Seriously, no joke, no hyperbole, no animosity.
I'm assuming neither Waves or MOTU are taking responsibility, and really it doesn't and shouldn't matter to you whose at fault. What matters is you having a working system and at this point that means using other plug ins than Waves in DP9 for the interim, period.

Here's the gist of what I'm saying:
Software has bugs. It's up to you to do something to lesson the affect it has on you.

Going to a DP and MOTU centric forum and stating that MOTU is 100% at fault in a bug that involves third party software where you haven't, and I would bet cannot, be certain it's MOTU and not Waves etc. isn't going to do anything more than give you some people to argue with, especially when you poo poo spending time troubleshooting the problem yourself. I'm not sure exactly how that's shooting the messenger to state all this?

It has not been confirmed in the public way I asked for.
Be critical of me all you like. It’s as if I made the bug right? I broke DP 9.

[James Steele]

What the hell do you want, man? Public apology? Maybe buy advertising time and run commercials? So you say MOTU has acknowledged the bug. I'm really not sure what sort of prostration and penance you're demanding.

[Michael Canavan]

Listen man, this is a KNOWN ISSUE!
It is not “just my system”.
It has been replicated by Waves and MOTU!

Really? why didn't you say at first that MOTU and Waves had confirmed the bug?
What are you complaining about then? Seriously, no joke, no hyperbole, no animosity.
I'm assuming neither Waves or MOTU are taking responsibility, and really it doesn't and shouldn't matter to you whose at fault. What matters is you having a working system and at this point that means using other plug ins than Waves in DP9 for the interim, period.

Here's the gist of what I'm saying:
Software has bugs. It's up to you to do something to lesson the affect it has on you.

Going to a DP and MOTU centric forum and stating that MOTU is 100% at fault in a bug that involves third party software where you haven't, and I would bet cannot, be certain it's MOTU and not Waves etc. isn't going to do anything more than give you some people to argue with, especially when you poo poo spending time troubleshooting the problem yourself. I'm not sure exactly how that's shooting the messenger to state all this?

It has not been confirmed in the public way I asked for.
Be critical of me all you like. It’s as if I made the bug right? I broke DP 9.

I have never said you weren't being honest about having issues with DP and Waves. What I have said is you seem to not really know whose fault it is, but your'e 100% convinced it's MOTU. You keep alluding to and adding to your story instead of giving anything like concrete information. I have also said that regardless of if it is MOTU, it's up to you to either figure out how to use DP9, roll back to an earlier version, or use another DAW in the meantime.

I have switched DAWs because of bugs and missing features I wanted. I've ranted on forums about a DAW being BROKEN, and I've been wrong about it. I've seen plug ins break more than just DP. There is no perfect solid DAW or perfect solid plug in developer. That, is 100% an irrevocable fact. That, is where you're wrong in all this.
I completely agree that known issues should be publicly addressed, there are problems with that, that you undoubtably should be able to figure out. Ableton for instance tried that with the release of Live 8 and a slew of bugs that were introduced. It caused them far more damage than MOTU experienced with DP6, far far more. Native Instruments at one point in their development for OSX had tech support people who would flat out recommend switching to PC. That didn't help them any. People love a good beat down.

With Waves and DP assuming MOTU have not said that it's their 'fault', it's very likely that they don't know yet. That happens. I've had plug in developers admit it's an error on their part and DAW developers as well, but it's rare, because even admitting it doesn't make the end user happy. The end user wants 100% bug free software all the time, and a cookie dammit!

[toodamnhip]

What the hell do you want, man? Public apology? Maybe buy advertising time and run commercials? So you say MOTU has acknowledged the bug. I'm really not sure what sort of prostration and penance you're demanding.

In writing back to a fellow user who messaged me with support to what I am trying to get across here, I wrote that " I am not happy it ended up pissing James off though. He does a good thing with this site and I hate annoying him.......... But Sometimes it takes noise to fix a VITAL neglected issue.”

So I am sorry to cause you grief my brotha.
As far as you asking what I want?-
MOTU and Waves, and as many companies as possible being honest and open about MAJOR bugs to the public.
The bug was acknowledged by industry entities other than MOTU. To be honest, I don;t recall whether MOTU later confirmed it privately to me or not. Sorry that I don’t recall that.
And now this is all becoming a bit hyperbolic with you asking if I want prostration and penance. Come on bro?..lol...

So what I want:
MOTU and Waves, and as many companies as possible, being honest and open about MAJOR bugs and proactively reporting to the public should a bug result in major failure of the DAW.
And, I would like to see an industry wide adoption of protocol to report any technical issues, to the public, when any user could be somehow have their projects substantially harmed by NOT having such data.

[stubbsonic]

I think you make a good point, that a company could have a page that is accessible (not even necessarily easily)-- that lists know bugs that are being worked on, and/or are out of their control (i.e., those caused by an Apple update).

I could envision visiting MOTU's site, clicking on the product page, then clicking support-- then having a page that is marked with something, not necessarily "bugs", but maybe "known compatibility issues" or some such.

Then list things that have been giving users problems- along with some status text.

It could be construed as good PR, because it would show that the company is aware of, and acting on what it can.

I don't envy anyone in software development. But particularly software like this that has NASA-like complexity. It doesn't help when Apple continues to change the rules. But don't let's start on that.

[cuttime]

After the fact, but this list is pretty exhaustive:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=60398

[James Steele]

To be honest, I don;t recall whether MOTU later confirmed it privately to me or not. Sorry that I don’t recall that.

Think hard. I thought you alluded to it. Someone says it was a Waves issue, right? Do you still snapshot every automation parameter of every plug-in multiple times throughout your mixes? Maybe the load you place on it is also part of what's at play here.

And now this is all becoming a bit hyperbolic with you asking if I want prostration and penance. Come on bro?..lol...

I don't think so. You have a history of pounding away and pounding away at the same issue and beating it to death and every time it amounts to just so much venting. This site, as you know, isn't run by MOTU. There's no guarantee they'll even see this. So obviously you need to contact them. If they don't move fast enough, then beyond simply lighting up this forum sporadically, maybe it's time for torches and pitchforks and marching on Cambridge?

Whatever you want, it seems that after a point, posting about it here over and over may not produce results. Of course, if you do it with so much repetition, eventually they will get around to solving this issue and it may fall closely enough after one of your posts that you'll assert that it was your posting about it here that caused MOTU to move into action, when perhaps they were working on it all along.

Anyway... I guess it was an unintended consequence that making posts to this board would end up becoming the defacto blunt object with witch to bludgeon MOTU. It wasn't my intent, but some people choose to use it that way. Good luck.

[toodamnhip]

James,

You asked about confirming, the bug, and while it isn;t the focus of what I wanted to say, The bug was technically acknowledged by developers at another company. Not by MOTU in my memory. Now, of course, MOTU may or may not be the important company here, depends where the bug lies. But it really matters not. It is confirmed. There was even another post about this bug elsewhere, a few times I believe.

But all in all, The point of the post was the responsibility of any company to report bugs to users. The bug in question matters not and this thread is not an argument about whether or not there’s a bug with mute automation.
One user chimed in and gave seek and destroy advice to get to the bottom of this particular bug. It was good advise. And maybe I did;t make it clear that this wasnt about a PARTICULAR bug?
But the point isn;t this particle bug. It could be any serious bug.

And as far as the purpose of this forum, well, A) it can obviously be about anything YOU wish as you are the god that created this little MOTU universe. and B) The reason you have the title “gripes” is exactly that, a GRIPE!.
You were right in moving this to that section and I had no problem with that and apologized for placing this thread in the wrong category in the 1st place.

But I have a GRIPE! and I thank you for making a category for such as it is needed. Gripe=Never a happy thing right?
It might not be a bad idea to have a sticky at the front of this section that says “high emotions ahead, respond at your own peril”....

[James Steele]

Right. I made a Gripe section so it wouldn't clutter up everything. My problem is that as admin here, I have no choice but to have to read most of what's posted here.

[toodamnhip]

Right. I made a Gripe section so it wouldn't clutter up everything. My problem is that as admin here, I have no choice but to have to read most of what's posted here.

SO on the one hand, I do occasionally get pissed off and wish to Gripe. And you’ve been kind enough to provide a forum for such. Yet , try as you may to allow for this, you get sucked in! Hmm....Perhaps your sticky maintains in it’s warning label that the Gripes section is unmonitored except when members report egregious violations of forum policy?..Hmm..nope. That would get out of control real fast and the internet would fill with more craziness related to MOTU than one could shake a mic cable at.
OK, well, then...... sorry for annoying.....we could pretend I’m just TOYING...but then those bugs start destroying, and we’re back to square one.....with me imploring......and good ol’ James again the recipient of the rather annoying, tell me my arguments...are rather boring. Or something like that.

[stubbsonic]

Clever!