Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by James Steele »

Robert Randolph wrote:Slate VMS comes with a mic AND a preamp.
Thanks for confirming that. That's what I remembered.
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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by mikehalloran »

Shooshie wrote:
mikehalloran wrote:I just bought a Cloudlifter CL-z for use with some vintage dynamic and ribbon mics I own. You can bet that one of the first mics I tried it on was my SM57 and 58 with the 12dB boost and the input set about as close to 600 as I could ballpark. Huge difference! It sounds like a decent mic now, not great but useful. Sweetwater made me a good deal on it.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CLZCloud
Mike, tell me more about this Cloudlifter. Are we talking about ANY mic? Or is it for dynamic mics like the Shure SM 57? Would it benefit a U87 or 414?

That knob; is that adjusting impedance? It says HPF above it, and that's confusing me. Or is it talking about HPF for ohms, not Hz? Hmm... that makes more sense. I guess I can assume that HPF is for impedance, filtering out powerful signals.

When you flip off the HPF, does the dial actually do anything?

Just trying to wrap my head around what exactly this little beast is doing. For $300, it's worth trying, but is it something I'm going to want to buy for every mic?

Shoosh
Since it is phantom powered, you can't use it on condensers except battery and those with external power.

There are three controls. The first is a 12/25dB boost (no bypass or passive mode). The next engages the HPF or not. The third is an Ohm knob adjusting the impedance as the mic sees it – it is certainly a pot controlling a resistor in parallel.

The HPF is not fixed as input impedance interacts. Essentially, if the mic sees what it is expecting, you can figure that the response curve is about what is stated. Engage the HPF and increase the Ohms, you can extend the bottom range while still roll off subsonic freqs. This is bad for an SM57 that dampens properly at 600 Ohm but could be really great on, say, an AKG dynamic with a 600 Ohm output that normally sees a Mackie @ 2400 in.

This is designed for ribbon mics and many manufacturers are recommending it. The non-variable CL-1 has a fixed impedance of 3K. This is great for many mics but I want more control.

My Shure ribbon has a 35 Ohm output so I will be rolling this down to the 150 range and see if it can sound good again.


One could easily make a passive version but you have to know the impedance of your preamp to get the resistor value in the ballpark. It's then a matter of doing the math so that you know the correct value for the points on your knob.
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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by Shooshie »

Very interesting stuff, and it's something I've only marginally considered in the past, having nothing I can do about it anyway. I've always figured that preamps and mics kind of just got along, the one being designed for the other, and having the necessity of processing its signal efficiently. But that's not one of my more competent areas; I've always wondered, but not pursued, whether there is some ratio or curve at the intersection of resistance, gain, and frequency that could be creatively altered if one possessed that kind of knowledge and hardware to control it.

Would you say that's the case with this box? Or am I overthinking this?

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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by donreynolds »

It is a physical system hybrid with software to complement a dedicated mic and preamp. That what I think makes it different from other mic simulators. Sure, It it is not the same thing as using the real one, but if it even comes remotely close, that will be an awesome thing for guys like me that will never ever have super quality microphones to use.
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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by James Steele »

donreynolds wrote:It is a physical system hybrid with software to complement a dedicated mic and preamp. That what I think makes it different from other mic simulators. Sure, It it is not the same thing as using the real one, but if it even comes remotely close, that will be an awesome thing for guys like me that will never ever have super quality microphones to use.
Sounds completely plausible to me.
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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by mikehalloran »

This guy shows you how to build a simple, inexpensive. variable impedance control.

http://garynobleshow.blogspot.com/2014/ ... dance.html

He uses a 1k pot to build a control that takes input down to 600 Ohms when used with a 1500 Ohm mic pre. Problem is that the input of your preamp determines the ideal potentiometer. He talks about the math but has no link to the equation nor a chart that eliminates the guesswork.

You can find the formula and suggestions for fixed resistors here:
http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/r ... l/330.html

As you lower input impedance on a dynamic mic preamp circuit, you lower the output a few dB. That's why I like the CL-Z. Dial in the right Z then add a 12dB boost for many moving coil dynamics or a 25dB boost for ribbons and notoriously low output mics such as the SM7B and RE20.
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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by monkey man »

G'day Don. Welcome back, mate!
mikehalloran wrote:To me, emulating the frequency response of a mic is not the same as using the microphone itself. Maybe I've missed out, maybe not.
Apparently the dynamic and off-axis responses are modelled as well, along with proximity effect.

I only just learned about this, and posed a question in another thread as to whether or not I've made a huge mistake with a lay-buy purchase that's almost complete... after 14 months (with a couple to go).

Buying a 414 silver to go with my TLM-103 (original model from early 2000s), along with a 1073 DPX. I could've bought the VMS for a 7th the price. At this point I need reassurance that I've not wasted over a year of my life... again! LOL

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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by David Polich »

For info on Slate's Mic modeling system, go here:

http://www.slatedigital.com/aes2015/

I think it will be around $2500 but don't quote me on that. It could end up being less or more.

The mic in this system serves as an audio input device. The preamp amplifies the signal. The signal goes from the preamp to the software which takes the input from the preamp and processes it
through algorithms wich model different microphones.
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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by bayswater »

monkey man wrote:G'day Don. Welcome back, mate!
mikehalloran wrote:To me, emulating the frequency response of a mic is not the same as using the microphone itself. Maybe I've missed out, maybe not.
Apparently the dynamic and off-axis responses are modelled as well, along with proximity effect.
If it works, it will be quite an achievement. There's more to it than eq, dynamics and proximity. It would also have to deal with various types of distortion and the way that varies by frequency and the mix of frequencies. And the source would have to be as clean or cleaner than anything that gets modelled unless it figures out how to add signals that aren't there in the first place.

If all it does is eq and dynamics and proximity, couldn't you do that with convolution?
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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by Shooshie »

bayswater wrote:
monkey man wrote:G'day Don. Welcome back, mate!
mikehalloran wrote:To me, emulating the frequency response of a mic is not the same as using the microphone itself. Maybe I've missed out, maybe not.
Apparently the dynamic and off-axis responses are modelled as well, along with proximity effect.
If it works, it will be quite an achievement. There's more to it than eq, dynamics and proximity. It would also have to deal with various types of distortion and the way that varies by frequency and the mix of frequencies. And the source would have to be as clean or cleaner than anything that gets modelled unless it figures out how to add signals that aren't there in the first place.

If all it does is eq and dynamics and proximity, couldn't you do that with convolution?
That's what I was thinking. I can only assume that anyone who would tackle a problem as complex as this would see everything we are seeing, plus some answers that elude us, because we haven't walked down that path as they have. Every problem I've ever tackled revealed itself step-by-step as I moved through it. Standing at the beginning and peering in, hoping to see the whole thing before risking your time is a surefire recipe for failure, as you simply cannot see the answers until you get your feet wet, or worse, until you see whether the water is over your head or not.

So, having actually tackled it, maybe they see what we don't. If not, why would they even continue? Well, one can presume two answers to that question: either they see it, or they are too stupid to know that they don't see it. I think Slate has proven that they are not the latter.

It's all too much for me; I'll just use the mics I have, at least for the foreseeable future.

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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by David Polich »

Slate produces great products, Fabrice (their code-writer) is a genius. I'm betting that their new
mic modeling system really works and works well.

The question for me is whether I'd want to spend more money on that than I would a new mic and
mic pre. I already have a number of nice mics which get the job done.
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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by HCMarkus »

EQ and Dynamics, yes. Proximity and Off-Axis, I don't think so. The former two are measurable absolutes and thus can be modeled, but the latter two would not be detectable without position sensing.*

*Axis could probably be measured if the input mic used two capsules and provided stereo outputs and the software could compare and calculate based on relative phase.
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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by bayswater »

HCMarkus wrote:EQ and Dynamics, yes. Proximity and Off-Axis, I don't think so. The former two are measurable absolutes and thus can be modeled, but the latter two would not be detectable without position sensing.*

*Axis could probably be measured if the input mic used two capsules and provided stereo outputs and the software could compare and calculate based on relative phase.
Yes, I hadn't thought about it that way. I just assumed you would dial in proximity and axis effects. Like a plugin.
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Re: Hey there.. been off for a while, got a question

Post by mikehalloran »

"Physics. Not just a good idea. It's the law."
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