DP Falling Behind

[Robert Randolph]

Best explanation I know of for warping:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNCWEjS8aJ0

Note that you can do this across multi-track recordings and keep everything in phase as well.

DP can do this almost using the quantize feature and keep tracks in phase. The issue in DP is that you can't just grab and go. You have to fuss with the quantize feature, selections, the beat detection and maintaining a 'master' for the quantize function.

The cool thing about how it is in Logic/S1/PT is that you can simply grab a single marker and move it. Done. It micro-adjusts all the content between the previous and next marker so you have a nearly seamless result.

I do 99.9% recorded music in various rock genre's, and this feature is a HUGE timesaver. So much so that it's usually easier to export tracks to another DAW just to adjust a few notes.

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edit 1: If you're not familiar with how DP does it, here's motu's video on the DP workflow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fXMpWddPwg

Note that Logic/PT/S1 can do this exact same workflow as well, but with the aforementioned ability to edit single markers quickly and easily.

edit 2: The beat detection in the other software's is also much better than DP's in my experience, and it's easier to 'drop-in a marker'. All this can be done directly from the main view in other programs. No need to open a wave editor. This makes a huge difference when working with multi-tracked instruments.

[mhschmieder]

OK, I get it. I would probably use such a feature then, as the few times I have tried to do that sort of thing, I got frustrated because my hand would slip on the mouse or something, and I'd completely lose my sense of where I was in the convoluted process and what was or wasn't undoable.

[bayswater]

All this can be done directly from the main view in other programs. No need to open a wave editor. This makes a huge difference when working with multi-tracked instruments.

This is the big issue for me. Not being able to edit and hear the effect in the context of the other tracks is the missing feature.

[mhschmieder]

That's actually why I rarely use the wave editor in DP.

[Shooshie]

Best explanation I know of for warping:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNCWEjS8aJ0

Note that you can do this across multi-track recordings and keep everything in phase as well.

This would have to rank as one of my top priorities in my DP wish list, but I want it to work equally well for audio and MIDI. There are (obviously) ways of getting it done in DP, but the "rubber band" feature in ProTools, Studio One, and others is a timesaver that ranks up there with Take Comping. It's just a shame that we don't have that yet.

In MIDI you can get there in a roundabout way using Proportional Drag, which is basically just dragging a selection while holding down the Control Key. The only problem is that it does not secure the ends for the "rubber band" effect, so you have to do it twice: once with the first selection up to the moving point, and again with the second selection after the moving point. It's not necessarily hard to do once you get used to it, but it's not easy, either. The rubber band effect, or "warping" is just so elegant and easy, like certain tools in Photoshop that do essentially the same thing. It would not be hard to achieve at all, being a combination of two "proportional drags" pinned at opposite ends, with the drag point between them.

MOTU, if you're listening, please, please take a look at this and place it high on the priority list. I keep watching to see if you've done it. No joy so far. This is a serious feature that DP deserves to have!

Shooshie

[stubbsonic]

I've never heard of proportional drag in DP and don't see it in the index of the manual.

When I press Control it brings up the contextual menu. If I press it while dragging it does nothing. If I'm in the SE, it just prevents dragging. I'm curious though. Does it have another name in the application?

[Shooshie]

Proportional Drag is one of my primary tools.
Here's the process:

• 1) Select a range or string of MIDI events.
  2) Press down the CONTROL & SHIFT keys
  3) IN THE CONTROL POINT LANE, Click on one of the events and hold
  4) Drag. The data will do one of the following:
  • 4a) If you click at the extreme (vertical or horizontal) end of the data and drag, all data from first selected point to where you clicked will stretch or shrink proportionately
    4b) If you click somewhere in the middle of the data, it will expand or shrink the entire selection proportionately. If you click in the 2nd bar of a 50 bar selection and drag by one bar, the 50th bar will become the 100th bar. Note values increase proportionately, too.
  5) The SHIFT key is to constrain your drag to one axis. If you neglect to use the SHIFT key, your drag will be chaotic.

I've never looked it up in the manual, so I don't know what they call it. If it's not easy to find, Shame on MOTU! This is an important feature, and one of my most often used tools during daily MIDI work.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Note that I edited Step #3 to read "In the Control Point Lane..."

Without that limitation, you would have a very hard time indeed using the Proportional Drag.

If you are only editing notes, select their velocity tics and click on them to drag.
Also, You don't have to click first. After reading your post, I thought maybe you had to click, THEN invoke the Control Key. You don't have to. As long as you're hovering above the control point lane, you'll get a crosshair when you hold down CONTROL. I'd forgotten that this always works. Sorry... I haven't been working in MIDI since I returned from my sabbatical over the summer, and I was just thinking of something else. I've altered the post to be more accurate, because I don't want to cause any confusion.

Shooshie

[toodamnhip]

. I've heard the comment that Mach Five is the answer in DP, .... it is a many step, awkward and only partially successful solution.

Nonsense. Using IR CAM stretch/compress/pitch shift is easy in MachFive 3.

When you have to stretch/compress/pitch a multitrack recording of a single instrument then it's a huge pain.

This type of workflow is very easy in other softwares, and with generally excellent quality.

Ive tested IR CAM and bought Mach 5 for the sole purpose of changing pitch of some audio. After many tests, I determined the pitch change algorithm in izotope RX was clearly better than IR CAM in Mach 5. That said, it is long over due for MOTU to improve their time stretch and audio manipulation results. The sad thing is, they were the 1st to offer time stretch and now they have lagged way behind...sad.

And when mixing and editing an entire Orchestra last year, I had to do the mix in pro tools and realized that if I had to adjust the timing of that same orchestra in DP, I would have been lost. It would have been very laborious and had I STRETCHED the audio like I did in Pro Tools, it would have sounded terrible in DP. IN DP, I would have had to cut all tracks into pieces, moving the pieces, and crossfaded laboriously. Forget stretching in DP> That too made me sad. There was NO comparison, pro tools was clearly superior without a doubt for time stretch.

[Michael Canavan]

Agreeing on time stretching.. I use Live as well, and it has quite great advanced time stretching in multiple algorithms. Mostly with DP if timing needs to be corrected and it's a staccato type sound I'll cut and drag, (had a drummer complain about MIDI jitter on a sequenced bass etc.), but otherwise I import to Live then ReWire it in. Live standard is $500, so it's a pretty spendy solution compared to buying a nice soft synth or MachFive/Kontakt.

My pipe dream with the newly included Spectral Display of audio in Live 9 is that it's a precursor to MOTU adding in iZotope RX advanced surgical editing and Radius time stretching type functions into DP9.xx or DPX. They're more tightly partnered with IRCAM than iZotope so if that's going to happen it will depend on IRCAM's tech likely. IMO this would be something, if it happened, that would shut up any whinging about DP being behind.

[Gravity Jim]

I've been wondering lately why my music sounds so dated and dusty. I guess I better switch to something that makes stupid dubstep tricks a little easier.

[Robert Randolph]

I've been wondering lately why my music sounds so dated and dusty. I guess I better switch to something that makes stupid dubstep tricks a little easier.

Is that really necessary?

This forum has been pretty negative lately. It's a real downer.

[Gravity Jim]

How does one react to a post on a DP forum that claims DP is "falling behind" because it doesn't perform certain time stretching tricks? I point out that the statement is silly, and I'm being negative.

One post in a thousand on any forum is valuable knowledge. The rest is blithering. Which goes double for "Is DP falling behind?" I've pointed out in the past that nobody on this forum knows the first thing about MOTU's marketing, their sales numbers, their goals, or what would be considered a successful launch. So wondering aloud if DP is falling behind because it doesn't cater do a particular thing you've seen in other DAWs is just talking out of one's ass, and a waste of bandwidth.

You're right about it being a downer, though.

[Shooshie]

How does one react to a post on a DP forum that claims DP is "falling behind" because it doesn't perform certain time stretching tricks? I point out that the statement is silly, and I'm being negative.

One post in a thousand on any forum is valuable knowledge. The rest is blithering. Which goes double for "Is DP falling behind?" I've pointed out in the past that nobody on this forum knows the first thing about MOTU's marketing, their sales numbers, their goals, or what would be considered a successful launch. So wondering aloud if DP is falling behind because it doesn't cater do a particular thing you've seen in other DAWs is just talking out of one's ass, and a waste of bandwidth.

You're right about it being a downer, though.

The title is off-putting, but there's nothing wrong with a thread about what an app needs to keep improving it. If we could get 2 things added to DP, I'd vote for that "rubber band" or "warping" dragging in a selection, and probably an actual "snap to grid" function that actually moves a selection so that the first event of the selection starts on the beat. Those two things would make a lot of people happy, and I could find them useful, myself. If that alone came from this thread, it would be worth the off-putting title.

We had a little rain the past few days, after months of continuous hot sun in cloudless skies. After so many months without rain, everything was covered with dust, bird crap, and other detritus left behind by animals, trees, plants, and who-knows-what. Beautiful weather, but after so much of it, this part of the world was not looking beautiful. The rain came fiercely, then a fairly gentle and steady downpour for a few days. Now it's sunny again, and the world outside is amazingly bright, clean, and beautiful again. Sometimes you just need a little rain in order to appreciate the sun to its fullest extent.

Shooshie

[ritzybiz]

The title is off-putting, but there's nothing wrong with a thread about what an app needs to keep improving it. If we could get 2 things added to DP, I'd vote for that "rubber band" or "warping" dragging in a selection, and probably an actual "snap to grid" function that actually moves a selection so that the first event of the selection starts on the beat. Those two things would make a lot of people happy, and I could find them useful, myself. If that alone came from this thread, it would be worth the off-putting title.


Shooshie

Maybe I could have been more sensitive with the title, but it was driven by frustration at the time. I am an active 75 yo who still takes on many projects in my studio, and I am still as enthusiastic as I ever was. That doesn't mean I don't want to find better ways to complete my recordings and maybe fix a few bars of drums in an otherwise perfect take.

I certainly don't know anything of MOTU's marketing strategies, but they do listen to users comments, e.g. MIDI mutes, and so hopefully we will see some improvements in audio bending. DP's real time pitch correction is a great innovation and they were ahead of the pack when it was introduced.

The sun is out here on the NSW North Coast, but then again it usually is!

Charlie