Key Dip

[bayswater]

I was asked to help find a reasonable but inexpensive digital piano for someone who is learning to play. I went to listen to a number of them and took along a "real" piano player to advise on the action of the keyboards. She said the keys didn't move enough on most of those we tried. I hadn't noticed but the total travel on them is rarely more than half the height of the key, and often less than that.

I googled, and learned that this is called "key dip". Second, recommended key dip seems to vary, and is as little as 3/8". Someone pointed out that old grands and large uprights are as much as 7/8". My old 5' upright's key dip is about 7/8". That feels natural to me, but I'm old and have bad habits.

So, perhaps an accomplished player could advise on what key dip to look for when picking a first keyboard, with the goal of choosing something that will help develop good habits and technique.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

There are a couple of responses possible. THere's the technical response related to travel ('dip") and also weight, which is equally as important in how the keys "feel" to a pianist who is used to real pianos.

The technical specs are easy enough to google and fall under the general category of "regulation" which relates to all aspects (including key return, back check catching, hammer release (from the key mechanism) and about a hundred or so other aspects, all in relation to each other. Screw up one on a traditional action regulation and other adjustments aren't possible. It's that delicate a process.

The bottom line, however, is how the keyboard feels to the player. Most electronic instruments don't have true weighted action. Also at the bottom of the key travel on real pianos, there's just a little padding locution the fingers and more importantly, to mute the sound of the key hitting the keyed. Think of it as aftertouch (which is really what it is). Again, that's after considering travel and weight.

Additionally, most electronic instruments don't use wooden keys. They add a lot of weight to the overall instrument and are usually much pricier keyboards.

For a real piano feel, I'm guessing you're looking at about $3k-ish. I love my Kurzweil PC2 and PC88. They feel damn close to a real piano. I recently bought a Korg 280 for about $700 and the feel is quite good. The instrument sounds fantastic and even has audio in/out to plug additional stuff in and send the whole mix out to a aux out. The built in speakers act as stage monitors (they continue playing when using the aux out and mute if you use one of the headphone jacks).

It comes with a nice stand (4 screw in legs I'll never use) and an attachable music stand (which is perfect for hanging an led music light. The non piano sounds are OK, but not ready for prime time. The piano is good enough for pro use in any setting.

OK, TMI, I know. But it sounds like your friend (yeah, right... j/k!) is looking for a good instrument. The Korg is good and not so expensive and it feels "pretty good." It's not heavily weighted but enough of a representation that it's useable. I just order the $50 3 pedal accessory that provides a sustain, sostenuto, and soft pedal. The soft pedal is important as there is no way to hook up a volume pedal (except vis the MIDI in) and the sostenuto pedal is true sostenuto. Notes held while the pedal is held stay held. subsequent notes are as played (with to with the sustain and soft pedal).

As my father in law would say: I've already told you more than I know.

[bayswater]

Thanks for that. I guess there are a few moving parts here.

Getting the perfect keyboard is not likely, $2-3K is not happening, but I want to suggest something that won't cause big problems later on. With guitars, I see a kids given one with nylon strings, thinking it will easier for them. The problem is they move soon to an electric guitar and can't deal with it. Strings are too close together and too tight for them, and they've developed habits they have to overcome before they can move on.

I did try a some Korgs and they felt good to me. Subsequently, I looked at a few acoustic pianos and they all had key travel of about half an inch, so I guess my first impression about it was wrong, and I shouldn't worry about it too much.

[Shooshie]

Tell 'em it's $2000-$3000 or nothing. When I was teaching kids, I got so tired of parents wanting their kids to progress quickly, while not wanting to shell out the bucks for an instrument. Saxophones were pricy as band-instruments went, so I understand their reluctance, but for goodness sakes, there are certain things you just have to spend the bucks on. You wouldn't want a "beginner air bag system" on your kids' cars would you?

When it comes to instrumental technique, kids generally have to learn it twice: once on the "beginner" instrument, then again on the professional instrument. I'm familiar with pianos, flutes, saxophones, and a few other instruments, and I can say with some certainty that you can't learn on a beginner instrument without having some serious flaws to correct later on. I say learn it once, the right way.

Shooshie

[BobK]

Consider a used Yamaha P-series stage piano or a used Casio Privia. For someone on a budget, they're the best options IMO. And while I totally understand Shooshie's concern, I don't think these are so bad as to require a complete relearning of technique if the student should graduate to a better instrument later.

In general, Yamaha has better actions (for my taste), but Privias are cheaper. My next-door neighbors found a used Privia on Craigslist for $75 for their toddlers, and it's far better than a synth action, other cheap digitals, or $50 old upright pianos.

Key dip is absolutely important, but it's not something that manufactures are going to worry about too much in low-cost keyboards.

[bayswater]

Consider a used Yamaha P-series stage piano or a used Casio Privia. For someone on a budget, they're the best options IMO. And while I totally understand Shooshie's concern, I don't think these are so bad as to require a complete relearning of technique if the student should graduate to a better instrument later.

In general, Yamaha has better actions (for my taste), but Privias are cheaper. My next-door neighbors found a used Privia on Craigslist for $75 for their toddlers, and it's far better than a synth action, other cheap digitals, or $50 old upright pianos.

Key dip is absolutely important, but it's not something that manufactures are going to worry about too much in low-cost keyboards.

Yes, I understand what Shooshie is saying, but it's so far from the actual available options, they would dismiss that advice immediately. Privias I looked at were ho hum. The Yamaha P45 looked better, and felt OK to me. Thanks.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Warning on the Casios, all of them seem to have "textured" keys which are too slick and slippery for serious playing. Also check their inputs and outputs. There's only headphone out in most if not all and that kills the built in speakers. They sound ok but feel like playing and oil covered keyboard.

Yamaha low end rigs feel better but sound like crap.

For my money, the Korg I linked earlier is a great choice. I hear the Rolands are on par but a bit pricier.

[bayswater]

Thanks. I'm trying to get them off the Privia and look at the Korg and Yamaha more closely. Interesting what you say about the Yamaha -- my "assistant" in yesterdays investigations said exactly that. I thought it might just be it's speakers -- I'll have to look for demos/samples.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

They sound even worse thru an amp!

[bayswater]

They sound even worse thru an amp!

I just downloaded some samples for the Korg, Previa and Yamaha. You're right. The Yamaha doesn't cut it. Sounds like a dull version of my old Kurzweil Proformance. The Previa sounds better. Too bad about the oil slick.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I had an Emu Proformance module. Is that the one? Ugh! Not bad for it's day, but yikes!


[edited]

[bayswater]

I had an Emu Performance module. Is that the one? Ugh! Not bad for it's day, but yikes!

That's right. Emu. But Proformance. I got one under insurance to replace my stolen Korg P3. It was an improvement, but somehow, it never sounded like its ROM Demo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpZc-Vp1DP4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYsVA4UbWoE

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Right, Proformance 1 to be exact (my spell checker changed it - the bastid!) LOL I gave mine away I hated it so much, but not until I used it in waaaaay too many projects. It was the best I could get at the time.

[BobK]

Warning on the Casios, all of them seem to have "textured" keys which are too slick and slippery for serious playing.

I've checked out Privias for students, and the keyboard finishes vary by model. If I recall correctly, some had those slippery keys, and others had textured keys that seemed to be trying to imitate ivory, but felt unnatural to me - they had too much texture. But for beginners who can't or won't spring for a Yamaha, either of those would be better than nothing.

[Prime Mover]

Privias are crap, IMO. A little over a year ago I was forced to play one on the final night of an Irish music festival. One of the keyboardists INSISTED that his Privia was the best because of the textured keys. I've never been one to tout my old Alesis QS8 (Fatar keybed), but holy crap did this feel a whole lot worse. The texture is really unnatural and the feel was way off, very strange. It didn't help that the piano sound was literally WORSE than my mid-90s QS8 (which I've long since relegated to a dummy controller for soft synths).

Unfortunately, since I'm a soft-synth guy, I can't offer any clear advice, but there's GOT TO be far better than that!