.0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

[mhschmieder]

BKK, a dozen is a LOT of people. Let's keep things in perspective.

None of us know the staff size at MOTU or how it is allocated.

I can't make comparisons to my own workday situation without releasing private information that I'm not supposed to talk about, but I would say you are QUITE LUCKY to have the scale of workforce you have. It DOES make a HUGE difference.

We follow all the same approaches you do. It's made my life hell as a result.

You can figure out the rest.

I do hope that MOTU has the resources to hire an SQC team of adequate size. I am quite confident that they run a professional show there, so that at least need not be of concern.

A company that did NOT use their resources as well as they could have was BIAS. I would give anything to have a team the size of the one they had, and whip it into shape.

[BKK-OZ]

I either mislead you or you misunderstood me.

The company I beta test for has a couple of developers (1 lead, a few specialists, some other help from time to time). They have a dozen or so beta testers (not developers).

[James Steele]

IOTOH, it's a shame MOTU doesn't take advantage of the numerous experts and power users we have here in MOTUNation. If they made some of us beta testers, as you asked, we would have reported most, if not all, DP9's bugs.

Since beta testers typically aren't allowed to identify themselves as such under the terms of the NDA they usually have to sign, how do you know that some MOTUNation users aren't beta testers?

I can't believe so many obvious bugs went right past the beta testers this time... Like the bug where the Track Selector and Channel Strip windows can not be closed with a shortcut. How can they not notice these things?

Well, it could be that not everybody works the same way and some bugs aren't always reproducible. Might even be that some bugs are more difficult to track down than others or there are interdependencies. We can't really know what goes on in testing, because obviously any testers that might be on this board, are prohibited from talking about those things... even if they'd like to defend themselves in threads seemingly devoted to their incompetence.

[mhschmieder]

I have been a beta tester for several pieces of software commonly used by people on this site, but I can't say which due to NDA's. It is a LOT of work, let me tell you! The last few times I was asked, I had to beg out of it, as my day job has been non-stop intense for up to three years straight now (it's frequent in my profession, but not usually for this long at a time).

Typically, beta programs involve a LOT more than "testing for bugs" and include critical feature input. One of the frustrations of being a beta tester (speaking for myself, but also being aware of what beta testers of my own app go through), is that you can quickly become "dependent" on a new feature and write patches and/or setups or projects that use it, only to see it disappear (due to "too many bugs for the schedule") or refactored such that your work is incompatible.

Beta testers deserve a tremendous amount of respect, as it rarely comes with any compensation (many times, it doesn't even result in free or discounted software or -- where relevant -- hardware) other than maybe being able to make some decisions and workflow changes earlier than otherwise (and maybe have enough inside knowledge to avoid unwise purchases of competing products).

It can be VERY difficult to get the full attention of beta testers at the right time. One program I was in required me to sign a binding promise that I would be up on each update within a few hours, and updates were almost non-stop. Getting co-workers to commit to the right amount of time and punctuality can be even harder than with external beta testers, however, as there's always something more important that they know YOU know is more important too.

I have no idea how MOTU runs their beta tester program -- I can at least say that that is one that I have never been part of (nor would I volunteer, as there are too many parts of the app that I don't use). Nor do I know the ratio of beta testers to SQC/QA. But the latter really is more for looking for regressions against older versions, compatibility with OS changes, etc. Also looking to workflow changes enabled by new features, but in the end, it's the beta testers who find edge cases that the engineers and SQC/QA team would never have thought of.

Anyway, all of this is background info for a hopeful wish that a point release was already well underway when the 9.0 baby had its umbilical cord cut. And while there may be things that are being found and reported on this forum for the first time, it's also highly likely that they were discovered during testing and/or beta feedback, but were too risky to slip into 9.0. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a point release planned for quick release, giving enough time for confirmation of fixes as being safe. I seem to recall that DP8 played out this way.

[FMiguelez]

IOTOH, it's a shame MOTU doesn't take advantage of the numerous experts and power users we have here in MOTUNation. If they made some of us beta testers, as you asked, we would have reported most, if not all, DP9's bugs.

Since beta testers typically aren't allowed to identify themselves as such under the terms of the NDA they usually have to sign, how do you know that some MOTUNation users aren't beta testers?

That's a good point. I don't know that, of course.


.

Well, it could be that not everybody works the same way and some bugs aren't always reproducible. Might even be that some bugs are more difficult to track down than others or there are interdependencies.

Maybe.
But you have to admit that opening and closing windows with shortcuts is one thing most people do. I doubt there are many who spend more than 3 hours a day on DP who click on windows or menus to open or close editors or floating windows, especially a beta tester (which I tend to think of as a power-user or a very successful professional).

I'm just frustrated this version is not working for me ATM.
Hey, it's a first one for me! I had been spoiled by more robust full-version DP releases, at least since DP7.

I trust MOTU is working on an update as we speak, though.

We can't really know what goes on in testing, because obviously any testers that might be on this board, are prohibited from talking about those things... even if they'd like to defend themselves in threads seemingly devoted to their incompetence.

If we have DP beta-testers here, they must be feeling pretty frustrated by now, I'll give you that LoL!

I don't mean to sound like I'm trashing them. I just thought some of the problems I've been seeing are too basic or obvious to miss, but I admit I don't really have a full understanding of the system they use for the beta testers.

So yes. I apologise if I gave the impression of being too critical due to my personal frustration.

[James Steele]

...especially a beta tester (which I tend to think of as a power-user or a very successful professional).

Many "very successful professionals" don't want to be bothered with beta testing... especially the DAW that they're trying to do their work on. Plug ins may be different. But would you really want to be working on projects that have deadlines using a beta version of a DAW? Seems risky.

[Robert Randolph]

Maybe.
But you have to admit that opening and closing windows with shortcuts is one thing most people do. I doubt there are many who spend more than 3 hours a day on DP who click on windows or menus to open or close editors or floating windows, especially a beta tester (which I tend to think of as a power-user or a very successful professional).

I'm just frustrated this version is not working for me ATM.
Hey, it's a first one for me! I had been spoiled by more robust full-version DP releases, at least since DP7.

I, and I thought most people these days, use the consolidated window setup, windows sets and the keys to hide different areas as needed. I have everything I need/want setup in the side bars, cells and horizontal split. It's either always open or I close that section as needed. I also heavily use Window Sets, which makes the idea of closing windows (other than plugins) with a shortcut obsolete. Closing plugin windows with cmd-w works just fine too, and if it didn't I'd throw a fit.

I would think that (other?) power users would also make use of Cells, Sidebars and Window Sets, and likely wouldn't ever need to close a window with a shortcut. It seems to me that if someone is actually using all the window management features provided (as a good beta testers should!), then the action of manually closing the window with a shortcut may easily get overlooked.

Despite those thoughts, I do hope that MOTU gets the issue fixed. If I hadn't managed to avoid it totally by using other built-in methods of window management, it would drive me absolutely crazy.

edit: Which windows are you having trouble opening and closing btw? I just tried a few and they seem to work fine for me.

[FMiguelez]

Maybe.
But you have to admit that opening and closing windows with shortcuts is one thing most people do. I doubt there are many who spend more than 3 hours a day on DP who click on windows or menus to open or close editors or floating windows, especially a beta tester (which I tend to think of as a power-user or a very successful professional).

I'm just frustrated this version is not working for me ATM.
Hey, it's a first one for me! I had been spoiled by more robust full-version DP releases, at least since DP7.

I, and I thought most people these days, use the consolidated window setup, windows sets and the keys to hide different areas as needed. I have everything I need/want setup in the side bars, cells and horizontal split. It's either always open or I close that section as needed. I also heavily use Window Sets, which makes the idea of closing windows (other than plugins) with a shortcut obsolete. Closing plugin windows with cmd-w works just fine too, and if it didn't I'd throw a fit.

I really don't like using consolidated windows... I've tried them, lots of times, but I remain unconvinced about them. Since with these new monitors I can't extend windows to occupy both screens, that makes CWs even less useful to me.

I just like pressing shortcuts to open/close what I want on a need-to basis.
Do I need the Track Selector? I press letter "H".
The Channel Strip? I press letter "q", and so on.

I haven't updated my old Window Sets in a while, though. Perhaps I should revisit those...

edit: Which windows are you having trouble opening and closing btw? I just tried a few and they seem to work fine for me.

Mostly with the Track Selector and the Channel Strip. I can open them, but I can't close them if they get on the way. I must go with my mouse and click on their red close buttons.

But the Track Selector behaves VERY strange as well... Even if I Option-click on a track name, so it shows ONLY that track, the mixer refuses to do so... IT will show a random track or tracks, along with the option-clicked one, and the ONLY way to get rid of the unwanted tracks is by opening their folder in the Track Selector, and manually click twice on each unwanted track. THEN they'll go away...
And it seems to do this at random, even if I close and reopen the mixer. Very weird...

THAT one is my main complaint, ATM.

[Robert Randolph]

Maybe.
But you have to admit that opening and closing windows with shortcuts is one thing most people do. I doubt there are many who spend more than 3 hours a day on DP who click on windows or menus to open or close editors or floating windows, especially a beta tester (which I tend to think of as a power-user or a very successful professional).

I'm just frustrated this version is not working for me ATM.
Hey, it's a first one for me! I had been spoiled by more robust full-version DP releases, at least since DP7.

I, and I thought most people these days, use the consolidated window setup, windows sets and the keys to hide different areas as needed. I have everything I need/want setup in the side bars, cells and horizontal split. It's either always open or I close that section as needed. I also heavily use Window Sets, which makes the idea of closing windows (other than plugins) with a shortcut obsolete. Closing plugin windows with cmd-w works just fine too, and if it didn't I'd throw a fit.

I really don't like using consolidated windows... I've tried them, lots of times, but I remain unconvinced about them. Since with these new monitors I can't extend windows to occupy both screens, that makes CWs even less useful to me.

I just like pressing shortcuts to open/close what I want on a need-to basis.
Do I need the Track Selector? I press letter "H".
The Channel Strip? I press letter "q", and so on.

I haven't updated my old Window Sets in a while, though. Perhaps I should revisit those...

edit: Which windows are you having trouble opening and closing btw? I just tried a few and they seem to work fine for me.

Mostly with the Track Selector and the Channel Strip. I can open them, but I can't close them if they get on the way. I must go with my mouse and click on their red close buttons.

But the Track Selector behaves VERY strange as well... Even if I Option-click on a track name, so it shows ONLY that track, the mixer refuses to do so... IT will show a random track or tracks, along with the option-clicked one, and the ONLY way to get rid of the unwanted tracks is by opening their folder in the Track Selector, and manually click twice on each unwanted track. THEN they'll go away...
And it seems to do this at random, even if I close and reopen the mixer. Very weird...

THAT one is my main complaint, ATM.

Channel strip opens and closes fine for me. No issues using cmd-w to close the window. All of the windows respond to this fine for me.

The track selector is working fine for me here. I've spent about 15 minutes trying to break it to no avail.

Maybe it's time to trash prefs?

[mikehalloran]

But you have to admit that opening and closing windows with shortcuts is one thing most people do

I have to take your word for that. I am not most people, apparently.

I really don't like using consolidated windows ... Since with these new monitors I can't extend windows to occupy both screens, that makes CWs even less useful to me.

Yea, me too. I like using three monitors. Even though the USB monitor doesn't support certain OS protocols, the others do which makes allocation easy.

I strongly suspect that no two of us use DP the same. This makes beta a bear. Still, certain things should work out of the box like common MIDI functions and the Drum Editor. I mean, really…

[FMiguelez]

Channel strip opens and closes fine for me. No issues using cmd-w to close the window. All of the windows respond to this fine for me.

The track selector is working fine for me here. I've spent about 15 minutes trying to break it to no avail.

Maybe it's time to trash prefs?

Thank you for taking the time to try this out, Robert.

I´ve already trashed the preferences to no avail. I´ll try reinstalling.
Otherwise, I suppose I can go back to 8.07 while we get 9.01.

[David Polich]

I don't think it's possible for MOTU to account for every possible user setup in the world, or
every single user's way of working with DP. And I have never seen a piece of software that
was never upgraded after its initial release.

I usually don't upgrade to a new relase immediately, I have preferred to wait for at least the
third update of a new release before jumping onboard. For some reason I was feeling bold
when DP9 was released and bought it right away. I still have DP 8.07 but haven't gone back to
it yet. Mostly I find that DP9 just has some changes in workflow and commands. Nothing
"deal-breaking" has happened for me yet. But I'm pretty old-school, I still just use one VI at a time,
track it as audio and then remove it from the project, I only use one window at a time, I don't
use many shortcuts, never use soundbite gain, never use crossfades or fades, haven't ever used
multiple takes, never have used the soundbite editor,drum editor, song window, Polar, etc. I still work with DP9 in the same way as I did with DP 2.7.

The fact is, if some people don't "early adopt", we'll never get the bugs ironed out. It's a dirty
job, but someobody's gotta do it.

[philbrown]

The fact is, if some people don't "early adopt", we'll never get the bugs ironed out. It's a dirty
job, but someobody's gotta do it.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

The fact is, if some people don't "early adopt", we'll never get the bugs ironed out. It's a dirty
job, but someobody's gotta do it.

[artfarm1]

When Craig Anderton was writing for 'Keyboard' back in the '90's and writing his great columns, I'll always remember this one:

"... it's best to be on 'trailing-edge' technology that you know and trust when you need something that will actually work for you when under pressure."

(or some quote very similar to that!) But, hats off to anyone who upgrades everything right away!