.0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

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Gravity Jim
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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by Gravity Jim »

Upgrading immediately is not a problem if you have the means to make a bootable clone of the drive in question. So I always do, just to see. If it sucks, I'm back in business in about 30 minutes. As David points out, somebody has to do it.

If a new feature is buggy, I don't care: I just keep doing what I'm doing until the new feature gets fixed. If an old feature gets broken (as in the bad old days of DP 6), I holler bloody murder online and at CSRs from the manufacturer.

But I have to say, the "we're paying to be beta testers" line is a silly canard. Every dev team has beta testers. I've been on several teams for music software and games (so you don't have to be a top-shelf guy, obviously: what is more valued is the ability to accurately describe what's happening and make intelligent guesses as to why it's happening, so good observational, trouble-shooting and writing skills are more valuable than "power use"). I've worked on projects that were tested to hell and gone, and something major that pissed off users still got through on the Golden Master. Assuming that DP9 has a couple of bugs because MOTU expects early customers to do the testing is risible.

And James is right: when you're beta tester for MOTU or anybody, you're sworn to secrecy under and NDA. Sames goes for contract work on software. The most iron-clad, bullet-resistant NDA I've signed was over 20 pages long.
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Shooshie
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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by Shooshie »

There are a lot of answers to the original questions. I have been on "many sides" of that fence. (it's a quantum fence) So please excuse what promises to be a long post.

First of all, I was a pro musician when I began using MOTU products in 1985. I used them professionally from the start, which was extremely frustrating since the quality code we have come to expect simply did not exist yet, and the poor Macs they ran on were haplessly, helplessly underpowered for what they needed to do. I learned quickly that you have to learn a product deeply, get used to its quirks, and apply it as you see where it can be successfully applied while avoiding those things that make it flake out and crash. When I went full-time MIDI/Audio arranging and directing (as opposed to performing) in 1992, I was always working on someone else's computers, so I used my own for breaking in software, finding bugs, calling MOTU and getting things fixed.

I called them from a studio in LA one time in late 1991, and gave someone (I forget who, now) a blistering earful of invective for my key-disk failure, which cost us a day's work until MOTU could overnight a new one to me. It wasn't long after that when they came out with a hard-drive authorization system. I have felt rotten about the anger I expressed on the phone that day, and it bothers me to this day, but it must have helped to get things rolling. They sent me one of the first authorization schemes to try.

But I digress (as usual). For about a decade and a half, I stuck with the scheme of using new versions for about 6 weeks or more at home before ordering the upgrades for clients, and installing them on their work computers. The only times I rushed that were when we sorely needed a new feature I'd been waiting for.

After OS X, things began to get a little more fuzzy. UNIX wasn't fussy about the software it ran. The old MacOS was not just fussy, it was flaky. You had to run a clean hard drive with no oddball software. I ran nothing but DP when I ran DP (or Performer before that), and I had a specific "Location" that I booted into when I ran DP. As a result, operations were basically 100% successful. When run properly, DP was the most reliable software on the planet. It would not crash! Sometimes clients would pay me to troubleshoot other Macs running DP, which had become buggy as hell. In every single case, employees or students had downloaded crappy shareware and/or played around in the System Folder. I just wiped their disks clean, installed MacOS and DP, applied my settings, and everything was fine.

But UNIX just didn't seem to mind what the hell was on your hard drive, or if it was running in the background. It took me 5 years to trust it, but after about 2007, I began relaxing my operating strategies and standards. I would run Safari in the background along with anything else I wanted, including other audio stuff. I mean, if it were for a particular event, I'd go back to my standards and run ONLY the required software on a fresh-boot. But for composing, arranging, playing, and even studio recording, I was not nearly as careful anymore.

After DP 4.5, I began installing updates as quickly as possible on work computers. I had come to expect a certain quality of code from MOTU, and they always delivered. Here, I feel compelled to state an opinion:

We give MOTU a hard time about bugs, but the fact is that their software generally runs perfectly the first time. Oh, there are little annoying buglets, but they are usually non-critical. Maybe something doesn't work the same way as it used to work, but it's not a show-stopper. As go software bugs, we've had an easy run of it. There are many apps out there which behave so badly as to be unusable when you get an upgrade. I'm talking about various kinds of apps: 3-D graphics are among the worst, animation software, movie software, and even word processors are capable of dumping your entire novel after an upgrade. Let me say it again: we've all come to expect near-perfection in every release, and we've been spoiled to stuff that works. To this day I've never lost a project, or even a portion of a project (other than maybe an hour or three of unsaved work — and who's fault was THAT?) to a buggy version of DP.

Now the nature of my work has changed. I went into semi-retirement about 5 years ago, just doing my own projects. I come out again to help very talented people who need the best recording possible, but who cannot afford the studio time it would take to get it. I'm able to do that for a few people, and it makes me happy to do so. Therefore, I'm not working on other people's computers anymore. All my projects are done on a MacBook Pro (for location recording) and a Mac Pro for studio recording and/or mixing. I usually go ahead and upgrade when I get the disk from MOTU.

DP9 has been the exception. I have been busy for about a month, and have not had the time to get into upgrading DP, though I would have liked to participate in the discussions here. I've gone a week at a time without even reading the forum! That's rare for me! I tend to do something like this about every couple years. I'm just sorry that this time it had to coincide with a new release. It's not like I was unavailable for the past six months, MOTU! :lol:

We need testers from various styles: techno music, jazz, hip-hop, C&W, etc., film scores, orchestral scores, or even chamber music like me. Each style typically brings along a certain way of working, and DP has got to perform for everyone. And of course, those rare few who are on the front lines — running Madonna's show, or Beyonce, or Lady Gaga, or anyone else — need to be giving feedback when they can. I used to do that kind of thing, and you don't get much time to feed-back. Moreover, you don't dare use a version on stage until you are 100% certain it's going to work perfectly. So, it's very important that those users at least tell us what versions work and which ones don't. (and why) Chances are, they go directly to MOTU as I used to do.

SO, yes, I've relaxed my standards a bit, but only because my work no longer requires it, and because UNIX is one tough OS. For stage work, I'd still go with something I've been using flawlessly for 6 weeks or more. For studio work, it's still critical because of the time/money element. But for everything else, I'm just not worried about it. DP hasn't crashed anything in a major way in the 29 years or so that I've used it, with maybe one or two exceptions that were very brief, version 4.0 being the most notable. Seems like 6.0 had some crash problems. And... I still can't report on DP9.

I always keep the previous version on board until I'm sure things are working, then eventually I delete it. I guess what has changed over the years is the time between installation and deletion. While that might have taken 6 weeks to 6 months in the old days, it now happens in a couple weeks, maybe a month.

MOTU's coders should take a bow for 30 years of amazing coding. You've spoiled us and convinced some very particular people that software always should "just work." This is great work, folks, and not necessarily "state of the art." It goes on beyond the industry average, and occupies a tiny margin at the leading edge of the whole pack. Until software coders are replaced by super-intelligent robots (hopefully, that means "never"), there will always be new-version bugs. There are just too many variables for coders and testers to try everything out there in every combination on every hardware platform, etc., etc. But MOTU's coders have generally gotten it very close, almost every time. I'm impressed.

Hoping to rejoin the discussions soon...
Shoosh
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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by Shooshie »

Sorry for the length. Let me try to sum up:

• DP has a long history of performing far above the industry average.

• What we're looking at here is the time delay between installation of version X and deletion of the previous version. It used to be longer (6 weeks to 6 months) for me, but now it's gotten short (a week or two) because of MOTU's reliability, and because of a major shift in my work as I've stopped traveling and doing much work for others.

• The type of work you do determines the level of reliability you require. I always worked with the attitude that I would deliver what I was responsible for: no excuses. Period. My clients paid me to take that weight off their shoulders, because they could depend on me. That meant I had to plan carefully and make sure the software always worked. Some versions sat on the sidelines for quite some time before I was comfortable moving them to clients' computers and taking them on the road. It was always my call, and I stood behind it, so I had to be 100% positive it would work 100% of the time. It was never MOTU's problem; it was mine.

• Do we need to ask MOTU to change their beta-testing policies? Personally, I think MOTU has delivered up in the 99th percentile of perfection; VERY hard to do in the software industry. Small bugs, almost nothing mission critical for 30 years. Still we have to do OUR part, which is feedback when something isn't right. It seems the system basically works. It takes time, but that's why we use a time-delay between installation of version X and deletion of version X-1.

• UNIX is tough, unlike the old MacOS. The combination of UNIX and DP has proved trustworthy. I don't fret upgrades as I used to.

In a nutshell, that's what my long post was about..

Shoosh
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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by monkey man »

... and that, folks, in a nutshell, is:

Shooshie's back. :lol:

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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by mhschmieder »

Where's his front?

Seriously, great post. :unicorn:
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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by mikehalloran »

key-disk failure,
Ahhh... key disks. The really, really bad old days.

Yesterday, I had an Emergency Project – not my emergency of course but… Anyway, I knew it would take an hour or less in DP 8 so that's what I fired up and it took 35 minutes.

Had I the afternoon, I would have fired up DP 9 instead. It might have taken the same amount of time but I didn't know so I went with what I trusted. At some point, I'll know DP9 well enough but yesterday wasn't that day.
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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by Shooshie »

mikehalloran wrote:
key-disk failure,
Ahhh... key disks. The really, really bad old days.
Yeah, when people talk about the good ol' days of classic MacOS, all I have to do is think of key disks, scrolling with a mouse, lack of keyboard commands, memory allocation, connecting to a printer, connecting to a network or modem, and 200 MB RAM (max) with 20 GB hard drives. Then there were Bernoulli drives, Syquest cartridges, and of course... floppies. Oh, and I forgot to mention monitors the size of a microwave oven or a small washing machine. Oh, man. I do NOT miss "the good ol' days!"

I've finally got DP9 installed, but like you I haven't found the time to open it and try out things. I can't just open it and use it. I have to be ready, with notepad and pen in hand, to see what goes wrong from the moment I boot it up. It'll be a couple weeks before I am ready to throw out DP8, if it turns out that I'm ready. Of course it usually does turn out just fine.

I'll never forget DP 7.0, which was so good from the start that I tossed the previous version in the trash after the first time I opened 7. Then again, I'll never forget DP6, which is pretty much the sole reason I use qualifiers like "almost never crashes," or "nearly always works perfectly the first time."

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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by philbrown »

Shooshie wrote: Yeah, when people talk about the good ol' days of classic MacOS, all I have to do is think of key disks, scrolling with a mouse, lack of keyboard commands, memory allocation, connecting to a printer, connecting to a network or modem, and 200 MB RAM (max) with 20 GB hard drives. Then there were Bernoulli drives, Syquest cartridges, and of course... floppies. Oh, and I forgot to mention monitors the size of a microwave oven or a small washing machine. Oh, man. I do NOT miss "the good ol' days!"
Shoosh
Another one was having to sculpt and maintain an extensions list with only extensions that wouldn't conflict with each other. I found some of those old lists the other day I kept for clients' machines - don't miss that! Also going through drawers in my studio closet last week found some old floppy key disks, font disks and other memory-lane stuff. TOSS! [looks over at 32GB thumb drive that's way smaller than thumb]

I was hesitant, but now glad I started this thread because there have been a lot of intelligently explained perspectives here with no make-wrong, no big axes to grind unlike other sites. "I'm talkin' to you, Gearslutz!" I really appreciate the sharing of wisdom and level of civility here.
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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by mikehalloran »

Getting SCSI termination right with multiple devices in the chain? Yikes! I still have an Apple-Adaptec 2902B card in my G4.

I finally offloaded all of my SCSI, Syquest, Jazz and Zip drives onto my G4 a few months ago so that I could send all that stuff to recycling. I hesitate to use the word, junk, since it all still worked.
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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by bayswater »

I dumped it all recently, except the zip and syquest drives and cartridges full of K2K samples. I'm still holding out hope that a software K2K is in the works somewhere.
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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by Shooshie »

Someday I'm going to have to yank out the hard drives on a lot of old Macs. I don't think I've ever thrown out a Mac. I've got a warehouse full of them not far from here. Time to get rid of them. All but the original 128K Mac with the signatures in the case.

Shoosh
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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by monkey man »

philbrown wrote: Another one was having to sculpt and maintain an extensions list with only extensions that wouldn't conflict with each other. I found some of those old lists the other day I kept for clients' machines - don't miss that!
I spent 3 years fiddling with the list when I first switched to Mac, Phil.

It turned out to be a faulty PCI-324 card, but I didn't know that until I'd spent those years reinstalling OS9 39 times, bought $3000 worth of RAM and several Macs. Blew my loan and budget for the "studio rebuild", and am still recovering.

IIRC, one could rename the extensions in order to predetermine the order in which they were loaded; said order had an effect upon functionality or lack thereof due to anomalous incompatibilities.

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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by mikehalloran »

monkey man wrote:
philbrown wrote: Another one was having to sculpt and maintain an extensions list with only extensions that wouldn't conflict with each other. I found some of those old lists the other day I kept for clients' machines - don't miss that!
...
IIRC, one could rename the extensions in order to predetermine the order in which they were loaded; said order had an effect upon functionality or lack thereof due to anomalous incompatibilities.
One could? One had to! :mumble:

I guess that MacWrite/MacPaint/AOL users didn't but if you wanted to get anything else done, you were putting spaces and characters in the names of your extensions to control the order that they loaded. Nope, something else I don't miss at all.
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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by Shooshie »

On the other hand, you could create a "Location" for various scenarios, like running Digital Performer, such that only the drivers needed for DP and affiliated software were loaded. THAT was nice, as it was probably the reason why I was able to work in high-pressure professional situations for years at a time without a single crash in DP. All of my 3 or 4 memorable crashes were due to hardware failures, such as a bad SCSI cable or memory error. I don't remember any that were actual DP crashes, though there may have been one or two I've forgotten.

The other benefit of Locations was the ability to plug into anyone's network, with modem and printer settings already configured, and with time zones and local shortcuts all ready to go. For people like me who traveled all the time, working out of other people's houses and studios, this was great.

But nowadays, you really don't have to do much of that. Once you've got someone's network password, your Macbook remembers it, and printers are pretty universal these days. Time zones are derived from the local access to a WAN, and OS X isn't too finicky about drivers and other software. Really, what we have now is getting very close to the best of possible computing worlds. Or so it seems. I'm sure in 50 years it will seem incredibly primitive!

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Re: .0 releases, early adopters and beta testing

Post by monkey man »

Great point Shoosh. I didn't delve into locations as I only used (that is, the idea was to use) DP on the machine, so the extension list and the order in which it loaded, along with RAM allocations for plugs and apps were where it was at for me; it's all I had and I tweaked that stuff to the nth degree. I remember the free PSP VU-meter plug required an allocation of 12mb, for instance...
mikehalloran wrote:
monkey man wrote:
philbrown wrote: Another one was having to sculpt and maintain an extensions list with only extensions that wouldn't conflict with each other. I found some of those old lists the other day I kept for clients' machines - don't miss that!
...
IIRC, one could rename the extensions in order to predetermine the order in which they were loaded; said order had an effect upon functionality or lack thereof due to anomalous incompatibilities.
One could? One had to! :mumble:

I guess that MacWrite/MacPaint/AOL users didn't but if you wanted to get anything else done, you were putting spaces and characters in the names of your extensions to control the order that they loaded. Nope, something else I don't miss at all.
Yes, we had to indeed, Mike. In this context, the shift to OSX was almost unbelievable, but I suspect that the USB-MIDI issues that plagued the first iterations of the OS masked what should have been our joy at not having to futz with extensions anymore, to an extent. Lock-ups (MIDI interfaces), stuck and delayed notes and so on were nothing if not inconsistent, niggling annoyances.

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