Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

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Shooshie
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Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by Shooshie »

In 2012, some Paris researchers conducted a test to see what violins players and audience preferred. They devised a double-blind experiment and asked participants to play solo, with piano, and with orchestra as they were handed 6 violins. The players wore dark glasses so they could not identify the violins, and their chin rests were perfumed so that they could not identify by smell. The violin collection consisted of three old specimens: two from Stradivarius and one Guarneri ‘del Gesù’. The other three were new, ranging from a few days old to a few years.

Here is a documentary of the process at YouTube.
The meta-data from YouTube on this video says:
  • Published on Mar 19, 2014
    The Paris Experiment: Stradivari violins, new violins, and what players really want.

    In September of 2012, a historic test took place in Paris, France, involving some of the worlds finest violins and violinists; a double blind comparison of old vs new violins in concert hall settings.
    This is a 28 minute version of a longer documentary about the proceedings.

    Document of Paris double blind test in September 2012
Here are the published results in the magazine The Strad, April 7, 2014.

Essentially, two of the new instruments won by a large margin. The least preferred were an old Strad and a new instrument. In the middle were a Strad from the Golden Period, and the Guarneri ‘del Gesù’.
  • 1. Modern
    2. Modern
    3. Stradivarius Golden Period
    4. Guarneri ‘del Gesù’
    5. Modern
    6. Stradivarius
Here's a write-up about it at Wikipedia.

Once again, myths built up over years — centuries, in this case — tumble down at the feet of empirical evidence. Of course the investment firms that have made Stradivarius Violins a diversification branch of the portfolios of the super-rich would argue vehemently that there were all kinds of shortcomings in the study. First and foremost, Jascha Heifetz did not participate, being rather longly late for such occasions, as in the late Heifetz, so how can you make a study without the greatest violinist ever? All the greats whose playing built up the reputation of the Strads and Guarneris are pretty much 6-feet-under, passed on, not-breathing-anymore, late fiddlers. Naturally, investors saw bucks if they could make a transference from the fiddlers to the fiddles, as if it were the fiddles whose magic qualities created Heifetz, Oistrakh, Menuhin, Szeryng, Milstein, Stern, etc., and not the other way around. The deflation of the myth could mean the deflation of the value of the instruments, so they will do everything in their power to keep the myth alive.

Once again I'm reminded of all the similar myths I've seen deflated. Monster Cables and beyond, as well as just about everything in the high-end audiophile stereo system world would collapse if similar tests were run. In fact, someone connected theirs with wire clothes-hangers, and people could tell no difference between them and Monster Cables (or something like that). From ice cream to steam locomotives, there are myths that elevate certain brands, models, designs to the status of legendary icons of civilization.

And yet... I still leave room for doubt. I know of at least one "myth" that is quite true. The Selmer Mark VI saxophone had a particular tone that players love. You can do so much with it. It's gorgeous, malleable, and the instrument was amazing, technically. The Mark VIs were made between the late 1950s up to about 1976. Mark VI bari saxes and sopranos were made till the 1980s. But the best were made in the early-mid 1960s. I hear people saying now that it's just a myth, but i've owned a dozen saxes of a wide range of brands, and I've played on literally hundreds of saxes of just about every brand known, until the recent ones of the past 15 years. Coming back to the Mark VI of each size of sax is an experience of ecstasy. But I know this, because I have played so many, so much, and I've exploited that sound for my own purposes. Other saxes just don't have the same sound. Ask an audience which they prefer, and they'll probably pick a fairly random sampling, but if you showed them the sax behind some of their favorite recordings, with its familiar sound, then they might realize what the particular sound of the Mark VI is, and they might look for it in future comparisons.

Could the Stradivarius comparison be of similar parameters? Many of the greats, like Heifetz, Perlman, Szeryng, and others prefer their Guarneri del Gesù over their Strads. There must be a reason. If there's a reason why the greatest of the greats prefer a certain instrument, might it just be possible that lesser players and listeners just don't get it? I can sure hear a difference in their playing, as compared to other violinists.

Then there are compressors that we all use in audio recording, some of which are legendary. Others may say "but you couldn't pick them out in a double-blind study," but there's a reason people like them, and it can't always be just because George Martin used on on the Abbey Road album. I'm a believer that the things that cannot be perceived or noticed by a listener are therefore not important. Is it really important to use a Juno synth? Or can I get close enough with Polysynth (MOTU's bundled Juno emulator) to satisfy 99.999% of all listeners? So, are some myths true, and others aren't? Is each myth true for certain people with the training to perceive it? (Still a myth to the blind followers who CLAIM to perceive it, but can't.) Or are we ALL just fooling ourselves?

In the 1980s, I could listen to a radio station playing classical music and tell you the piece, the composer, the conductor and orchestra, and even some of the players, as well as what kind of oboe the oboist was playing, even if I hadn't heard the recording before. My ears were very attuned to those particular details. Anyone who dared challenge me, then call the radio station, then do the research on the players and instruments, would be frustrated to find that I was right. (If I didn't know for sure, I'd say so.) Now, I can't do that well at all. But then I could. That tells me that there are subtle cues that a very highly trained individual may pick up that even other trained listeners won't hear. I know for a fact, because I was that person, and now I'm not. What I once could hear, now I cannot, because i've let go of staying on top of those recordings and sounds. I no longer study the players for their techniques, and so I no longer am really aware of everyone's technical pedigree. But once I was, and what I heard was fact, not conjecture.

So is there yet something to the mythology, perceptible to certain individuals, but not to most? That's going to be a tough double-blind study to devise, but I'd like to be a part of it when they figure it out.

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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

I've seen a few organs that really stunk as well. All kidding aside (as if that's possible) it's interesting that the celebrated Strad didn't come out on top. One shouldn't, however, discount the "value" of the history of a particular instrument. One might argue that Star Wars is a more "entertaining" film than 2001: A Space Odyssey, and many would agree, but which is a better film and which will stand the test of time as a true classic? Opinion? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by mikehalloran »

Joshua Bell made the news a few years ago when he sold the Strad he used in The Red Violin for around a million so that he could pay a three million plus for another.

http://www.allthingsstrings.com/News/Ne ... for-a-Cure

OTOH, those fiddle makers who get $50K for a new instrument will be the first to say that, if they built violins that sounded like old Strads, no one would buy.

I was 16 or 17 when I played The Wellington, the Strad cello with the ding made by Napoleon when he kicked it after learning his forces lost at Waterloo. I don't think the Hungarian government lets it tour anymore but when I was in high school, the Budapest Quartet toured with Strads including that one (they gave a clinic and let each of us play). Is it the finest cello ever made? I doubt it. Was it an incredible experience? Oh yes and I have never had the opportunity to play anything like that again. OK, I played an Amati bass once but it wasn't as nice as my friend's Mathias Klotz.
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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by stubbsonic »

Cool story, Mike. (Your post came in as I was typing mine, below.)


Interesting topic. I'm not surprised that they were able to find very fine quality modern instruments that could compete with (and even defeat) the strad.

Usually an instrument will be a pretty complex set of qualities, e.g.: tone quality, resonance, projection, responsiveness, intonation (for some instruments) etc. The picture gets more complicated when you factor in that most instruments will do better in some pitch ranges and worse in others, qualities will also vary with dynamics as well. So simply saying better or worse is taking into account lots of factors. (I'm not dissing the study and I haven't watched the video).

Just knowing that you are playing an old and expensive instrument might psychologically affect how you feel as you lovingly play it. The history and smell of an instrument are part of a complicated relationship between the artist and their instrument.

I'd rather have the instrument that sounds right to me, feels good to play, and is reliable, than to have something with established "prestige". I'm lucky to have a couple nice instruments to play.
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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by bayswater »

I don't know violins, and the results speak for themselves, but wouldn't the players had some idea of the instrument they were playing from its feel? And would the players have otherwise preferred the old violins?
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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by Shooshie »

bayswater wrote:I don't know violins, and the results speak for themselves, but wouldn't the players had some idea of the instrument they were playing from its feel? And would the players have otherwise preferred the old violins?
They took steps to minimize the cues a player could receive from the instrument itself, including perfuming the chin-rest to mask any smells. As for the feel of the fingerboard, the body, or whatever, you'd have to ask them. Those old instruments are kept in tip-top shape, and modern instruments are made to look and feel as closely as possible to the Strads.

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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by bayswater »

Shooshie wrote:
bayswater wrote:I don't know violins, and the results speak for themselves, but wouldn't the players had some idea of the instrument they were playing from its feel? And would the players have otherwise preferred the old violins?
They took steps to minimize the cues a player could receive from the instrument itself, including perfuming the chin-rest to mask any smells. As for the feel of the fingerboard, the body, or whatever, you'd have to ask them. Those old instruments are kept in tip-top shape, and modern instruments are made to look and feel as closely as possible to the Strads.

Shoosh
Yes, I see they did what they could to make the players blind to the instruments. But it just seems like an impossible task with people who have so much experience with the instrument.

At least the fact that they chose the newer instruments tells us that there was no bias in favour of the older. But something I don't know, but maybe you do: do the top violin soloist generally express a preference for old instruments, or is that just something everyone who wouldn't know the difference does?
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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by mikehalloran »

And would the players have otherwise preferred the old violins?
do the top violin soloist generally express a preference for old instruments, or is that just something everyone who wouldn't know the difference does?
That depends. Soloists ask different things of an instrument than section players in an orchestra.

I have a generic 3/4 Mittenwald flatback bass, a Kay S-59 Swingmaster and had a 1905 7/8 G. Pfretzschner. You would think that the Pfretzschner would be my go-to bass since it was by far the most valuable. Almost never which was why I sold it. It was the 5 string Kay – partly because it was a 5 string and conductors want the low notes but I liked the sound in a section. The comment I heard most was "That bass shouldn't sound so good … but it does."

The very last photo of me playing a bass was with my blonde K 5 string.

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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by stubbsonic »

I was doing some light cleaning and setup service for rental instruments and the Kay cello always sounded amazing to me compared to the others that came in. Not pretty. Beat to hell, in fact. But sounds so good. It had gone out and been returned several times, it's the only cello I recognize and say "Ah. The Kay. Nice."
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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by mikehalloran »

One thing the article didn't mention was the bows that were being used. Every string player I know would rather play a mediocre instrument with a fine bow that the finest instrument with a less than a great bow. Bows make a difference in the sound, big time.
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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by James Steele »

I know it's a bit of a leap to go from violins to drum kits, but I play with a guy who has an old beater Pearl Export kit and it routinely sounds much better than much more expensive kits I've heard with other guys playing them. Of course, there are so many variables as far as dialing in and tuning a drum kit. Some guys spend huge money on them and don't know how to tune them or which drum heads will work best, etc.

Back to the violins: the results don't necessarily surprise me. I'd like to see a similar test done with vintage guitars versus modern guitars. We tend to romanticize vintage instruments, and to a degree we can admire the skill and craftsmanship of the old school luthiers who crafted them. Yet today, with modern computer controlled milling machines, etc., guitars can be built with the sort of precision you couldn't do with the older traditional methods.

Anyway... thanks for sharing this, Shoosh. Thought provoking.
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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

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Well if we want to go further down the Rhodes there are pianos, and no old piano sounds as great as a new Fazioli and that's a fact. Even the beloved Bosemdörfer takes a back seat.
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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

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MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Well if we want to go further down the Rhodes there are pianos, and no old piano sounds as great as a new Fazioli and that's a fact. Even the beloved Bosemdörfer takes a back seat.
Play the old Steinway A in the former RCA Studio B in Nashville aka "The House that Chet built". Magic pianos are few and far between but that is one of them. Floyd Cramer, Charlie Rich and others played thousands of sessions on it. The studio is intact and now owned by the Country Music Hall of Fame and is open to the public when not being booked.
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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by Shooshie »

mikehalloran wrote:
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:Well if we want to go further down the Rhodes there are pianos, and no old piano sounds as great as a new Fazioli and that's a fact. Even the beloved Bosemdörfer takes a back seat.
Play the old Steinway A in the former RCA Studio B in Nashville aka "The House that Chet built". Magic pianos are few and far between but that is one of them. Floyd Cramer, Charlie Rich and others played thousands of sessions on it. The studio is intact and now owned by the Country Music Hall of Fame and is open to the public when not being booked.
In my experience, magic pianos are created by magic piano technicians. For 15 years I worked with a show that involved 6 Yamaha Disklavier Grand Pianos. We had a piano technician that went on tour with us, and we kept him busy. During the first few years we went through several technicians which Yamaha would fly out to us from Los Angeles. They made excuses for the tone of some of the pianos, each of which had its own distinct sound that completely characterized it.

In fact, we named the pianos for those sounds, and I could identify any of them instantly upon hearing a few notes played. At opposite ends of the spectrum, we had The Librarian (piano #2, later 4 when I changed my numbering system), and the Screaming C**t, if you pardon our adolescent and sexist labels, which was piano #3, or #5 by my earlier numbering system. I still remember how they sounded in every song.

Then we found our permanent technician, who was also employed at Arizona State University. The guy was magic. First of all, the pianos lost those distinct sounds — most of which were not complimentary. He made them all sound like the world's greatest pianos. He filed and picked and scraped and tamped and made the action completely even, made the hammers all respond exactly like their neighbors; none stuck out in loudness or timbre. I was very familiar with what piano techs could do, and yet I would not have believed what this guy did if I had not heard it with my own ears. So, I took advantage and had him shape the sounds for certain blends. Not a problem; he did it. I had to re-voice the velocities in my arrangements, but it was worth it. We started out with 6 fine grands. (five used in ensemble, and one spare) We ended up with 6 superstar pianos that were virtually indistinguishable.

I've always believed it's true that different varieties of wood — even wood of the same variety grown in different regions — could drastically affect a piano tone. I still believe that's true. But I now know it's also true that a gifted piano technician can pretty much compensate for anything and bring to life pianos that others have written off as "dead, dry, muted," and lots of other derogatory terms. Conversely, I have played on several Bosendorfer grands, each of which was a disappointment to me. Now I realize that the problem most likely lay in the technicians who worked on them, or possibly that they had NOT been worked on.

What would be enlightening would be to take Rick Florence, our technician, and have him work on that Steinway in RCA Nashville's Studio B, and several others with specific reputations, and then hear what he could do with them.

Interesting factoid: Rick was not a pianist, IIRC. He just chose piano technician as a career to support his family. Turned out to have a gift for it. Could it be that he just did not fear those reputations, or honor preconceived impressions of a piano's sound, because he wasn't married to the piano in any way other than choice of career? He wasn't tinkering with a legendary voice, in his mind; he was just doing his job, which was to bring out the best in every piano.

One reason why most technicians don't do the kind of work that Rick did is that you have to evaluate each key, hammer, and action as an individual instrument, see what it needs, and completely regulate it from touch to strike. Then you have to do that 88 times. It's not surprising that there are such inconsistencies among pianos. A technician must have a great ear, knowledge, and a technical gift, but the most important gift for a piano technician is that personality which sees the job as a duty, and has the unswerving patience to stay with that duty until the job is finished.

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Re: Myths and preconceptions revisited: Violins

Post by mikehalloran »

What would be enlightening would be to take Rick Florence, our technician, and have him work on that Steinway in RCA Nashville's Studio B, and several others with specific reputations, and then hear what he could do with them.
An interesting prospect but I doubt it would get much traction. Play the first few notes of this classic and you know it wasn't an A, you know it was that A in that studio fifty-three years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8nu9fi9wJM

Techs can do a lot but can't change the basic character of a piano. Our 6'7" Bösendorfer 200 was rebuilt in 1979. Before we took delivery, it was featured at a recital/reception for the factory techs who were on tour through the various Sherman Clay stores. The San Jose store was the only one that had a new 200, Kimball's new plywood copy of the 200 (Kimball Furniture Co. owned Kimball Piano and had just bought Bösendorfer at the time) and ours from 1920. The same techs set up all three pianos. The object was to show that the $7,000 Kimball could keep up with the $67,000 200. You have to remember these were 1979 prices.

The Kimball was surprisingly ok. The new 200 was very nice but that money could get you close to a D.

From middle C up, ours sounded identical. The basses, otoh, were a different story. It was like you turned up the loudness control on an old receiver and added a subwoofer. The new 200 had good solid bass; ours had the kind of thunder one associates with a great B. The factory techs explained that, in 50 years, the new 200 would sound like ours while the plywood Kimball would sound the same forever.

To this day, I don't understand why, if they were trying to sell plywood Kimballs and new Bösendorfers, they allowed our piano in the same room. We turned down a 250% profit before we took delivery.

Ours is now 95 years old and 36 years since its rebuild. We are looking for the right tech for the job – it's past time. The one I like best was playing his Klotz bass in Cleveland last I heard (that was a long time ago).

My wife hates this picture.

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